The Plymouth Rock Breeders thread

[weavers rocks]

That's what I was thinking too.  Next time you do some butchering, would you send me a pint or two? 

We haven't had a successful breeding season since we bought them so I'm not sure how they lost their vigor.

How would you introduce the new blood?  New K's over my hens and my C's over new P's?  Then figure out a rotation breeding plan? 

I used both yes I say your line was like mine just close bred for a long long time

 

[colburg]

Ken, do you have anything for sale right now? Blosl? Woeppel? Crosses? Eggs? chicks? juvies? full grown? Though I prefer grown or juveniles if you have them.

 

[Matt1616]

I had written about the same issue from a hatch this past fall....incubated 20 eggs, primarily WR but with some hatchery stock mixed in to fill the incubator. I only had 2 of the heirloom WR eggs to survive and hatch, the rest of the eggs hatched were from the hatchery cross birds. I had thought I had 4 of the heirloom WRs hatch, but soon discovered that two of them were from my ancient, 6 yr old hatchery WR....and I'm grateful for those two birds because they were~by far~the best of the hatch, along with a barred pullet from crossing over a BA. The heirloom chicks weren't worth feeding...the cockerel was culled and I'm watching the pullet, but am not breeding her.

I'm wondering about fecundity of the heirloom stock, particularly the hens. The males seem to be doing just fine but these hens are just not real fertile.

Beekissed, I'm confused about this comment that you made...if a hen is laying eggs she is as fertile as she can be. In the reproduction cycle, a female that produces eggs to be fertilized is considered fertile. The rest is up to the male. So if you have a male and a female together and the female is laying and you are not getting fertile eggs then the problem is the male.

Matt Ulrich

 

[Beekissed]

Beekissed, I'm confused about this comment that you made...if a hen is laying eggs she is as fertile as she can be. In the reproduction cycle, a female that produces eggs to be fertilized is considered fertile. The rest is up to the male. So if you have a male and a female together and the female is laying and you are not getting fertile eggs then the problem is the male.

Matt Ulrich

I beg to differ. Just because an egg is in the nest doesn't follow that it will complete the fertilization process. I've got old hens whose eggs are no longer viable, no more than an older woman's eggs are viable...she can release them all the same but it doesn't mean she can bear a child. These will even show a bull's eye denoting they've been fertilized, but most do not survive to grow into something. There is something about these heritage gals that keeps their eggs from going all the way to completion....they might develop so far and then stop or they don't develop at all, but are clearly fertilized and show it on the egg.

The rooster is doing his job and there are eggs in the nest, but the heritage female is not showing up in the final hatch like the hatchery birds. This tells me something is wrong in there...don't know what it's called, exactly, so I just say lack of actual fertility. Something is wrong with their eggs, in other words.

Come to think of it, they aren't real good layers either, so I guess one could say, in truth, they aren't real fertile.

 

[chicken pickin]

I beg to differ. Just because an egg is in the nest doesn't follow that it will complete the fertilization process. I've got old hens whose eggs are no longer viable, no more than an older woman's eggs are viable...she can release them all the same but it doesn't mean she can bear a child. These will even show a bull's eye denoting they've been fertilized, but most do not survive to grow into something. There is something about these heritage gals that keeps their eggs from going all the way to completion....they might develop so far and then stop or they don't develop at all, but are clearly fertilized and show it on the egg.

The rooster is doing his job and there are eggs in the nest, but the heritage female is not showing up in the final hatch like the hatchery birds. This tells me something is wrong in there...don't know what it's called, exactly, so I just say lack of actual fertility. Something is wrong with their eggs, in other words.

Come to think of it, they aren't real good layers either, so I guess one could say, in truth, they aren't real fertile.

It could possibly be that the birds being breed are too closely related causing the hatching issue. If the same male is covering the hatchery stock and those eggs are hatching fine then they are showing the vigor of birds that are not related, Im sure the same results would occur if you took a new male and placed him over your White Rock hens.

We find the same problem in other breeds that are too closely related. I have Cream Legbar and find them to hatch horribly, put the same Cream Legbar male in with other breed hens and those eggs hatch with near 100% hatch rate.

Sometimes we need to consider bringing in new blood.

 

[Beekissed]

Could be...I'm not really sure how closely related these two lines are. New blood has been infused here and I'm hoping for good things with that. Could be the right combination to turn out something grand.

 

[Matt1616]

I beg to differ.  Just because an egg is in the nest doesn't follow that it will complete the fertilization process.  I've got old hens whose eggs are no longer viable, no more than an older woman's eggs are viable...she can release them all the same but it doesn't mean she can bear a child.  These will even show a bull's eye denoting they've been fertilized, but most do not survive to grow into something.  There is something about these heritage gals that keeps their eggs from going all the way to completion....they might develop so far and then stop or they don't develop at all, but are clearly fertilized and show it on the egg. 

The rooster is doing his job and there are eggs in the nest, but the heritage female is not showing up in the final hatch like the hatchery birds.  This tells me something is wrong in there...don't know what it's called, exactly, so I just say lack of actual fertility.  Something is wrong with their eggs, in other words. 

Come to think of it, they aren't real good layers either, so I guess one could say, in truth, they aren't real fertile. 

There is nothing wrong with the Hen's eggs...as a matter of fact it has nothing to do with the hen in particular. This is simply lack of vigor caused by long term line breeding. Most lines of Exhibition Fowl are very tightly bred. You can't hardly find any high quality lines of any breed that are not related. Most all "lines" eventually go back to the same birds. Again...if a hen lays eggs she is fertile. I have hatched off of 7-8 year old Hen's. Chickens are not human and their reproduction systems work nothing like ours so don't compare them.

Matt

 

[Beekissed]

There is nothing wrong with the Hen's eggs...as a matter of fact it has nothing to do with the hen in particular. This is simply lack of vigor caused by long term line breeding. Most lines of Exhibition Fowl are very tightly bred. You can't hardly find any high quality lines of any breed that are not related. Most all "lines" eventually go back to the same birds. Again...if a hen lays eggs she is fertile. I have hatched off of 7-8 year old Hen's. Chickens are not human and their reproduction systems work nothing like ours so don't compare them.

Matt

I hatched from a 6 yr old hen this past fall as well. Tell me something...what exactly does "lack of vigor" mean? Genetic problems? And those lie where? Within the egg and sperm of the parent animals. Yes, I realize an old egg can still be fertile and some cannot, depending upon individual genetics....which are found within the egg matter. And, yes, chicken's reproduction works very much like ours at the bottom of the bottom of things...there is an egg and it's fertilized by a sperm cell and both of these hold genetic matter that will determine what characteristics the chick will have....just like in humans and many other creatures on this earth. The basic reproductive action is all the same...egg and sperm, egg and sperm.

Quote:

: active bodily or mental strength or force

2
: active healthy well-balanced growth especially of plants


If the male I am using can produce viable, thriving chicks when crossed over a hatchery bird but cannot do the same when crossed over an heirloom hen, I'd venture to say it's not the male's fault or genetic issue, but the female's. Her EGGS are part of the problem as they hold her genetic material and determine if the chicks will have "active, healthy, well-balanced growth", be it because she is crossed with a particular male and their genetics form a bad combination or whatever the cause, in this case I'm thinking the female is the key to the problem.

 

[colburg]

In the midst of this debate, I'm wondering if anyone has tried testing their females? Put a different cock over the standard hens and see what happens. I might try this when I have a pen free up soon. Or during breeding season next year.

 

[dreamofglory]

Here are two pictures of the same hen the first was taken last fall and the second was taken yesterday although she looks a bit rough from being in the breeding pen. I do think she has matured well. any comments?