The problems with new introductions..

[IlluminatedYak]

Hello friends! I'm currently in the middle of a grand war between the Old Flock and the New Flock, and I think I have about hit my wits end, so I have come to humbly ask for assistance!

The Old Flock: Currently 2 Cinnamon Queens, 2 Rhode Island Reds, 2 Easter Eggers.
The Cinnamon Queens are sweet to Humans, pretty nice to their flock mates. The Rhode Island Garlic rules with an iron fist, while the other Rhode Island Ginger is.. low on the pecking order and rude about it. The two easter eggers couldn't care less about anything in the world. They love to snuggle, eat treats, and are very independent. These birds were born in Feb of 2019.

The New Flock: 6 Easter Eggers who were born on October 1st, 2019. Very peaceful, beautiful birds who have been a blast to raise. No problems between any of them.

We have a 64 foot by 25 foot run, and a large shed that we re-purposed into a nice little chicken coop that's snuggly inside with tons of room, roosts, and nesting boxes available. There are 3 feeders and 3 water dishes placed through out the entire run, and they get snacks and attention all day long. We've taken a small corner out of the run and fenced it up so the New Flock can see the Old Flock and get used to each other (as we've read on how to introduce old birds to new birds.)

Here's the problem: It's been about three weeks and I think the temporary set up has had about as much as it can take. We tried introducing the birds to each other and it was.. pretty bad. The Cinnamon queens pull feathers and try to mount. The Rhode Island Reds have mounted and caused a few to come to bleeding before we separated them. The Old Easter Eggers just go in and peck them gently on the head and let them know they're in charge. This has happened at the end of week 2, beginning of week 3, and the end of week 3. We've immediately separated them back to their areas after injuries started happening.

We also separated off the two Rhode Island Reds in hope of shaking up the pecking order, but after a few days they sorted themselves right back where they were. (The leader is a very big bird, the other is very small and demure, and also molting.)

So my husband and I are at a loss of what to do. The Old Flock's Easter Eggers are acting like they should - they are very nice when it comes to reminding the New Flock of the pecking order. They bump them, tap them on the head, and don't chase them continuously and hunt them down like the others, then they'll go back to doing their own thing.

The Cinnamon Queens and Rhode Islands are definitely out for blood and trying their best to make this integration as difficult as possible. We want to add more birds in the future (more gentle breeds Orps, Sussexs, Jerseys, and the like..), and I'm leaning on the fence of selling off the Queens and Reds so we can at least have more peace as we enter in more birds.

I want the New Flock to have guidance, not be pounded into the ground.

I guess I'm rambling at this point, I just wanted some experienced guidance from people who have had to go through this before.

And some pictures! Thanks for reading through all of this!

Old Flock!:

New Flock:

 

[sloanbychoice]

Hello!!

I’m very new here, and I’m not going to be much help. My first guess is that some of this is due simply to the age and size difference between the flocks.

I originally came here due to an issue keeping my hens from attacking a new rooster, so I’m interested to hear what the others will have to say about this.

I will say good luck to you!!
I completely understand that frustration.

 

[aart]

It's been about three weeks and I think the temporary set up has had about as much as it can take.

The 'see no touch' is just the first part of integration...3 weeks is a pretty good length of time for that. Now it may take another 3 weeks or more...full flock integration doesn't really happen until the younger birds are laying.

Sounds like just a couple are out for blood, some birds are just vicious.
I'd put the nasty girls in the segregation area and let the others mingle.

Ignore the first part, but the rest might give you some tips and tricks to try.
Integration Basics:
It's all about territory and resources(space/food/water).
Existing birds will almost always attack new ones to defend their resources.
Understanding chicken behaviors is essential to integrating new birds into your flock.

Confine new birds within sight but physically segregated from older/existing birds for several weeks, so they can see and get used to each other but not physically interact.

In adjacent runs, spread scratch grains along the dividing mesh, best if mesh is just big enough for birds to stick their head thru, so they get used to eating together.

The more space, the better. Birds will peck to establish dominance, the pecked bird needs space to get away. As long as there's no copious blood drawn and/or new bird is not trapped/pinned down and beaten unmercilessly, let them work it out. Every time you interfere or remove new birds, they'll have to start the pecking order thing all over again.

Multiple feed/water stations. Dominance issues are most often carried out over sustenance, more stations lessens the frequency of that issue.

Places for the new birds to hide 'out of line of sight'(but not a dead end trap) and/or up and away from any bully birds. Roosts, pallets or boards leaned up against walls or up on concrete blocks, old chairs tables, branches, logs, stumps out in the run can really help. Lots of diversion and places to 'hide' instead of bare wide open run.


Good to 'clutter up' the run too:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/

 

[so lucky]

How about putting one older girl in with the young ones? Or, separating out the two meanest ones; maybe in crates for a day or two, so that they lose their standing in the pecking order.

 

[IlluminatedYak]

We did try to separate the meanest ones out for a few days, but they came right back into the flock like nothing had happened. We made sure to put them in an area that was pretty far from the run, but we can try separating them again when we do introductions again.

@aart these are fantastic ideas. We did add more food and water stations so the girls didn't feel like their resources were under attack, and we did lay out some hiding places, including a tarped over dog kennel, some tilted over 15 gallon buckets, and some big logs from a fallen tree in our yard. The problem we found was that the Cinnamon Queens and Rhode Island's hunted the young birds down constantly and tried their best to mount and pull on their combs. Even in a big group of 6, they were separated out by the 4 of them and attacked.

Tomorrow we will try separating out the mean ones and see if everyone gets along. I get the feeling they will. Thanks so much everyone for your thoughtful inputs and responses, I've been trying to stay sane and logical about everything, but holidays make everything seem much crazier.

 

[aart]

Rough ages, I like integrating at about 4-6 weeks.

 

[Folly's place]

It's been years since I've had hatchery RIRs or any of the production reds, and this is the reason. Many/ most of them were feather picking, nasty jerks to their flockmates. Good egg producers, but disruptive in the flock.
Try separation longer, and seriously consider moving at least the worst of them on elsewhere, maybe to another flock of equally difficult hens...
There's a product called 'pinless peepers', available online, that attaches to the face and prevents this sort of aggressive pecking. Consider getting them for your red hens.
Mary

 

[HAPPYCHICKENLADY17]

i have somewhat of the same issue..i have 2 yokohama bantams a white frizzle bantam and a very small sillkie hen, they have all been in the same coop since they were weeks old...now all of a sudden the yokohamas pick on the silkie and the frizzle, wont let them share treats on the ground and pitch a fit if anyone dares to go in the yokohamas nesting box to lay an egg, btw they are all hens...the yokohamas are 10 months and the other 2 are 8 months.....should i separate them or let them be

 

[bobbi-j]

The 'see no touch' is just the first part of integration...3 weeks is a pretty good length of time for that. Now it may take another 3 weeks or more...full flock integration doesn't really happen until the younger birds are laying.

Sounds like just a couple are out for blood, some birds are just vicious.
I'd put the nasty girls in the segregation area and let the others mingle.

Ignore the first part, but the rest might give you some tips and tricks to try.
Integration Basics:
It's all about territory and resources(space/food/water).
Existing birds will almost always attack new ones to defend their resources.
Understanding chicken behaviors is essential to integrating new birds into your flock.

Confine new birds within sight but physically segregated from older/existing birds for several weeks, so they can see and get used to each other but not physically interact.

In adjacent runs, spread scratch grains along the dividing mesh, best if mesh is just big enough for birds to stick their head thru, so they get used to eating together.

The more space, the better. Birds will peck to establish dominance, the pecked bird needs space to get away. As long as there's no copious blood drawn and/or new bird is not trapped/pinned down and beaten unmercilessly, let them work it out. Every time you interfere or remove new birds, they'll have to start the pecking order thing all over again.

Multiple feed/water stations. Dominance issues are most often carried out over sustenance, more stations lessens the frequency of that issue.

Places for the new birds to hide 'out of line of sight'(but not a dead end trap) and/or up and away from any bully birds. Roosts, pallets or boards leaned up against walls or up on concrete blocks, old chairs tables, branches, logs, stumps out in the run can really help. Lots of diversion and places to 'hide' instead of bare wide open run.


Good to 'clutter up' the run too:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/

As always,

We did try to separate the meanest ones out for a few days, but they came right back into the flock like nothing had happened. We made sure to put them in an area that was pretty far from the run, but we can try separating them again when we do introductions again.

@aart these are fantastic ideas. We did add more food and water stations so the girls didn't feel like their resources were under attack, and we did lay out some hiding places, including a tarped over dog kennel, some tilted over 15 gallon buckets, and some big logs from a fallen tree in our yard. The problem we found was that the Cinnamon Queens and Rhode Island's hunted the young birds down constantly and tried their best to mount and pull on their combs. Even in a big group of 6, they were separated out by the 4 of them and attacked.

Tomorrow we will try separating out the mean ones and see if everyone gets along. I get the feeling they will. Thanks so much everyone for your thoughtful inputs and responses, I've been trying to stay sane and logical about everything, but holidays make everything seem much crazier.

I'd separate those Rhodies out for at least a week. Longer would be better. For hiding places that aren't dead ends where the younger ones can get trapped and potentially injured, lean a pallet against a wall, being sure to keep both ends open. Put other barriers up where the younger ones can get out of sight of the older ones.

 

[NatJ]

We did try to separate the meanest ones out for a few days, but they came right back into the flock like nothing had happened. We made sure to put them in an area that was pretty far from the run, but we can try separating them again when we do introductions again.

Maybe put the mean 4 into the isolation pen, so they can continue seeing but not touching, while the nice ones get all the space in the main run.

Give them some time--maybe a week?--for the new Easter Eggers to feel at home in the coop, and to feel like they and the old Easter Eggers are one single flock.

Then let loose just ONE of the mean birds (Cinnamon Queen, if they're less mean than the Rhode Island Reds.) She will be outnumbered and feel like the intruder, so she'll have a better chance of being nice. If she settles in OK at that time, wait another few days or a week and let loose just one more of the old meanies.

Putting the mean ones back one-by-one over a fairly long stretch of time will mean they cannot gang up on the new ones, because each one has to find her place in the new pecking order all by herself.

We want to add more birds in the future (more gentle breeds Orps, Sussexs, Jerseys, and the like..), and I'm leaning on the fence of selling off the Queens and Reds so we can at least have more peace as we enter in more birds

I don't know what advice to give, but you have a very good point there. You've already been working at this for three weeks, and it will clearly take a lot MORE time to get them all settled, so I can see that you wouldn't want to go through it all again on a regular basis!