The Rhodebar thread!

[RedRidge]

The only reason I say that is your darker one is possibly single barred still usable if something happened to a rooster. I want to say the two yellowish ones are okay, they have a head spot which is clear to see, but wondering if they are a cross containing a wheaten gene which could throw off more crosses than you would want when crossed to a RIR. In reality if both parents are pure Rhodebar you should only be getting Double barred roos, no single barred roos. This is what has me stumped about a lot of the color variations we are seeing with Rhodebars.

Ah... ok... so... I think I will put three different colored leg bands on all the boys so I can track how they "evolve"...
good idea?

 

[RedRidge]

Quote: OK... the light bulb comes on... so... single or double is ok, but... breeders prefer double so that have more control of autosexing, but showers like the single because they are more "striking" (for lack of a better word)?

 

[melroseladi]

I do not think that the Rhodebars being bred are being kept true given the variety of colors in chicks as well as in eggs. A true Rhodebar mating should produce double barred males, chicks that are easily auto-sexed and will lay brown eggs as adults. Just because it looks like a Rhodebar does not mean it is a true Rhodebar and I think that is what has caused problems for those of us trying to get started in raising and improving the breed.

As far as showing goes for me showing a single barred Rhodebar male would be like showing a single barred BPR, but sometimes in other countries their SOP is not the same as ours here in the states so it may well be allowed and accepted.

Penny

 

[Makomd]

OK... the light bulb comes on... so... single or double is ok, but... breeders prefer double so that have more control of autosexing, but showers like the single because they are more "striking" (for lack of a better word)?

Yes that is correct.

The single barred male bred to a barred female would produce some single barred males also and some double barred males. The single barred males and the females could be more difficult to distinguish sexes where the double barred males scream male because they are so light. Double barred male to barred female would produce all double barred males.

 

[melroseladi]

The SOP says it should look like a barred RIR, double barred or single barred either way it is a barred RIR. Of course in the US its not even recognized.

Will you get the auto-sexing accuracy with chicks from single barred males?

Penny

 

[Makomd]

I do not think that the Rhodebars being bred are being kept true given the variety of colors in chicks as well as in eggs. A true Rhodebar mating should produce double barred males, chicks that are easily auto-sexed and will lay brown eggs as adults. Just because it looks like a Rhodebar does not mean it is a true Rhodebar and I think that is what has caused problems for those of us trying to get started in raising and improving the breed.

As far as showing goes for me showing a single barred Rhodebar male would be like showing a single barred BPR, but sometimes in other countries their SOP is not the same as ours here in the states so it may well be allowed and accepted.

Penny

I agree. Even when breeding a double barred male to a RIR there are genes that will have to be bred out. The offspring after this first mating very well may be sexable at hatch, but they will also be carrying a wheaten gene e+/eWh. If you are not actively trying to work that Wheaten gene out, it is inevitable to get some chicks that are barred and even double barred, but not carrying the e+ allele, just wheaten and this is where yellow chicks come into play.

 

[Makomd]

Will you get the auto-sexing accuracy with chicks from single barred males?

Penny

You will get some non-barred that would be culls, but the first mating from what others have posted still have sexable chicks while some are not. Here are the offspring of a Single barred Rhodebar and a RIR, notice they do not breed true at this state, some have lost all barring.


zwart getekend rood columbia koekoek
black patterned red columbian barred
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]

*

zwart getekend rood columbia
black patterned red columbian
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]
e+e+ CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ Bb+ s+s+ Choc+Choc+ arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww IdId po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+ Sire Dam EWhEWh CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ b+- s+- Choc+- arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww Id- po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+

Gametes Maternal
EWh Co db+ pg+ ml+ Cha+ Mh di+ Ig+ cb+ i+ bl+ Lav+ C+ Mo+ b+ s+ Choc+ ar H+ f+ na+ hf+ cp+ pti+ V+ mb+ cr+ et+ rp+ fm+ w Id po+ o+ Bd+ d+ r+ p+ EWh Co db+ pg+ ml+ Cha+ Mh di+ Ig+ cb+ i+ bl+ Lav+ C+ Mo+ - - - ar H+ f+ na+ hf+ cp+ pti+ V+ mb+ cr+ et+ rp+ fm+ w - po+ o+ Bd+ d+ r+ p+
Paternal e+ Co db+ pg+ ml+ Cha+ Mh di+ Ig+ cb+ i+ bl+ Lav+ C+ Mo+ B s+ Choc+ ar H+ f+ na+ hf+ cp+ pti+ V+ mb+ cr+ et+ rp+ fm+ w Id po+ o+ Bd+ d+ r+ p+

zwart getekend rood columbia koekoek
( black patterned red columbian barred )
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]

Continue with this Male

e+EWh CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ Bb+ s+s+ Choc+Choc+ arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww IdId po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+

zwart getekend rood columbia koekoek
( black patterned red columbian barred )
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]

Continue with this Female

e+EWh CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ B- s+- Choc+- arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww Id- po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+
e+ Co db+ pg+ ml+ Cha+ Mh di+ Ig+ cb+ i+ bl+ Lav+ C+ Mo+ b+ s+ Choc+ ar H+ f+ na+ hf+ cp+ pti+ V+ mb+ cr+ et+ rp+ fm+ w Id po+ o+ Bd+ d+ r+ p+

zwart getekend rood columbia
( black patterned red columbian )
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]

Continue with this Male

e+EWh CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ b+b+ s+s+ Choc+Choc+ arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww IdId po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+

zwart getekend rood columbia
( black patterned red columbian )
[ Yellowskin Lightshank? Single comb ]

Continue with this Female

e+EWh CoCo db+db+ pg+pg+ ml+ml+ Cha+Cha+ MhMh di+di+ Ig+Ig+ cb+cb+ i+i+ bl+bl+ Lav+Lav+ C+C+ Mo+Mo+ b+- s+- Choc+- arar H+H+ f+f+ na+na+ hf+hf+ cp+cp+ pti+pti+ V+V+ mb+mb+ cr+cr+ et+et+ rp+rp+ fm+fm+ ww Id- po+po+ o+o+ Bd+Bd+ d+d+ r+r+ p+p+

 

[RedRidge]

I agree. Even when breeding a double barred male to a RIR there are genes that will have to be bred out. The offspring after this first mating very well may be sexable at hatch, but they will also be carrying a wheaten gene e+/Whe. If you are not actively trying to work that Wheaten gene out, it is inevitable to get some chicks that are barred and even double barred, but not carrying the e+ allele, just wheaten and this is where yellow chicks come into play.

The good news is... THIS I understand in theory.
The bad news... putting it into practice is the tricky part (at least for me) because I have no experience identifying the wheaten gene in chicks...
So... this is my next chapter in my education. Since I want to use my RIR to improve the RB, I have to learn to identify those who are carrying the wheaten gene. It seems some folks can just "look" at chicks and/or adults and tell. I do not have the experience to do this.
So to this point all I've gathered about the dreaded wheaten gene is to avoid solid yellow chicks...

 

[Makomd]

The good news is... THIS I understand in theory.
The bad news... putting it into practice is the tricky part (at least for me) because I have no experience identifying the wheaten gene in chicks...
So... this is my next chapter in my education. Since I want to use my RIR to improve the RB, I have to learn to identify those who are carrying the wheaten gene. It seems some folks can just "look" at chicks and/or adults and tell. I do not have the experience to do this.
So to this point all I've gathered about the dreaded wheaten gene is to avoid solid yellow chicks...

After a lot of discussion you have a great point, even a e+/eWh and a e+/e+ can look identical to the eye, I hope that I can get an eye for it too. This next hatch phase I am working on with the eb allele has me hatching out 252 chicks to get 4 usable chicks, and this is using hatchery stock until my breeder stock is old enough to work in to get a jump on the type.

 

[RedRidge]

After a lot of discussion you have a great point, even a e+/eWh and a e+/e+ can look identical to the eye, I hope that I can get an eye for it too. This next hatch phase I am working on with the eb allele has me hatching out 252 chicks to get 4 usable chicks, and this is using hatchery stock until my breeder stock is old enough to work in to get a jump on the type.

Wow... this is a huge undertaking. Should be educational though.
I have 4 hatchery production reds I "could" toy with, but probably not worth it at this point since the HRIR and RB are only 3 weeks apart in age.
I look VERY forward to how this next phase of your goes.
Please post pics and info
In the meantime, I'm going to hit the books and see what I can learn about identifying the wheaten gene... and band my cockerels into 3 different "color" groups so I can track how they grow.
Thanks so much for your input, advice, experience, and willingness to share.