The road less traveled...back to good health! They have lice, mites, scale mites, worms, anemia, gl

[Beekissed]

I'll tell you, I tried hay for deep litter and found the strands were too long for the birds to move and fluff when they got moist and so they would just lie there and form a cap and under the cap would often be mold. Same with straw unless fine chopped. Straw doesn't really absorb much either and takes longer to break down. Also hard for me to move around as well either, so the bedding doesn't get aerated much when using these..... unless you live in a very dry climate and then the hay comes in real handy because of its natural moisture and how it will add to the balance of the dry droppings.

The most success I've had on deep litter was mixing the shavings, leaves, even small amounts of shredded paper(and I do mean small and every so often, not a whole bunch all at once or it forms mold caps also) and it formed an ideal deep litter.

A lot of folks warn against using leaves due to leaf mold but putting dry leaves into a nitrogenous storage will be ideal, particularly if the bedding is kept to a reasonably dry but not too dry state. Think how good leaves break down in just a winter's time in a compost or on a garden. And where do the worms and bugs like to live? Not in so much in pine shavings, but they LOVE leaves.

 

[Beekissed]

Funny little update on the Gnarly Bunch: Middle Sister, the hen with the holes in her feet and inflammation from it all, was acting much more spry and active today since her doctoring of yesterday. Saw her killing a baby snake and running and running to keep the others off her find!

She had her neck out of her back and had very much the normal movement of a chicken, instead of the hunched sort of stance and walking she has been doing.

I'm thinking I will take the packing out of her feet tonight and let those glands close up and diminish without a foreign body inside them. I have a feeling that the ol' hen is out of the woods...and back into the real woods.

Thanks to Cowcreekgeek for sparking the idea to really examine her feet much more closely or I would have never seen those impacted glands way down in her crevices on the feet.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

(in response to my Post #808 ~'-)
Not a bit of it! No need to feel ashamed and I took your suggestion to heart, though I normally do not fool with treating chickens and especially one this old....but I got curious and for the same reason you suggested...to see if I could make this bird well. I guess I feel up to the challenge right now when normally I am working, raising kids and animals, etc., and would not do such a thing.

After all, I'm a nurse...we love to dig into wounds, clean them, try to make them heal and do a little jig when it works!

SO....I had a rare opportunity to catch Middle Sister in the daytime this evening and I did that very thing. I was curious if there was something on her feet I had missed in the last examination. Of course, most of these examinations are at night when they are easily caught off the roost and the lighting isn't always ideal for really seeing all the surfaces of a foot...lots of creases there.

Guess what I found?

She had identical holes deep in the same crease of both feet between the first and second toe....I wouldn't have seen them if I didn't spread the foot wide and examine every little crease. She had no sores or scabs or obvious places that one would notice....just these holes. The holes were impacted with dirt, hay, grasses and more dirt. Now, I've cleaned a lot of chicken feet and peeled them for cooking and I've never seen a gland or any such on a chicken's foot but these holes were identical in nature and placement, so I don't think they were wounds. I'm thinking they are tiny glands in the foot that we never really see as they are deep in a crevice. I'm thinking these glands were impacted and enlarged due to poor sanitation in their former coop, that led to infection and just became impacted with material. Sort of like a sebaceous cyst.

The holes were shaped identical and were indeed like a gland in nature, once cleaned out for inspection. The area around the gland site on top of the foot was red and swollen, which is what brought my attention to that area and when I looked closely, I found them! See, Cowcreek? You were right...there WAS something in her feet that might be causing this swelling!

It took well over 50 Q-tips to get the holes cleaned out...and the holes were big enough to take the whole head of a Q-tip inserted them. I mean the whole length and width of the head of the Q-tip!

The dirt kept coming and coming, I dug with QTs and tweezers and just kept at it. I dipped QTs in peroxide to see if I could boil out any stray debris and this worked great. There was no pus, no core, no real bad smell...just a faint smell of staph infection(believe me, my nose knows different smells of different bacteria after all these years...ya just don't wanna know

) and lots and lots of black dirt and debris.

I finally reached the bottom and the last of the filth, cleaned it once more with peroxide and placed ATB ointment down into the holes and then packed them with tiny cotton balls off the tips of the Qs. Then sealed those with ATB oint. and finished it all with a good slathering of NuStock, worked into all areas of the feet and legs. I'll remove those cotton balls in a week and place more ATB in the holes and let them heal from there. Now that she is on clean bedding and soils, and her feet are washed in the morning dew each day, she shouldn't be getting debris packed up in that area again.

The ol' gal just lay there, swaddled in a towel, and let me dig and prod her feet like she was enjoying it. I hurt her one time and it made her kick and poop...luckily, the poop had no smell because she is on FF!

She was really a good patient and I know she will feel a little wooled around tomorrow but I bet she will start to feel better soon....

Who wants to bet this just might work?

Yes...you can all point and laugh at me now that I treated a chicken!

Don't get comfortable...it was only because I know this old bird and I know she has good genetics or I wouldn't have bothered. She may still be in the pot come spring and she doesn't lay, but at least her meat will be worth the eatin' if she recovers from all this.

I'm still thinking those openings remains as the result of rupturing, so as to release the internal pressures from between the ligaments and/or joints that her previously far more severe infection caused, although there are numerous lesser glands on the skins of just about all living creatures. Found a really cool digital version of overhead slides of the Anatomy of the Chicken >> PECK HERE << to open it in a new window ~'-)

I've given the "to cull, or not to cull," question a bit more thought since last I typed ... the theory that birds that become most ill, or heal more poorly, must be genetically inferior has a few flaws, in that it fails to consider the possibility that it is the result of the random nature of things, or that multiple events might have occured. A more fun way to explain:

If Wile E. Coyote were nearly as intelligent as the coyotes that came here last night, he'd target Road Runner while he was enjoying himself w/ his friends/family. And, as he dropped his ACME anvil upon the group, and if none among them saw it's quickly growing shadow on the ground, what could we then say to be genetically true of the misfortunate one it landed upon?

And, when Middle Sister's time comes, I was gonna say, "Save me a leg," but ... not so sure, after all this.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
That theory has a flaw as well. When all your birds come from the same genetic pool, as did these White Rocks, and were raised to have strong immune systems. as did these White Rocks, then one can safely assume that any bird of that group that has recurring illness or who heal poorly, despite good nutrition and management of environment and health, are genetically inferior.

One doesn't just go through the flock and point arbitrarily in the direction of poorly birds without weighing the probable causes and even the nature of their life. Did they get wounded and did that put them behind everyone? That is something considered in the mix. Like this old WR. The only reason she is still here is because I know this bird...I know she has superior genetics and that under normal conditions she can perform like all the rest. I do not, however, know what was inflicted upon her while she was out of my care...but that means little. If she does not recover from this joint edema within a certain time, she will still be a cull. Why? Because it is not necessary to keep a bird in misery under the guise of having "feelings" or "giving her a chance"...it's just cruel.

A bird that has the same nutrition, same environment, same care and life as other birds of similar age and breeding in the flock and still has recurring illness, reproductive issues or parasite infestations can only have one end conclusion....that bird, out of all the rest, has some underlying genetic predisposition towards weakness in health and production.

When you keep a flock for more than just a season you have time to observe and determine underlying causes for such things. Would I get a new flock and immediately start targeting birds for cull based on their general health at that moment? Nope. For other traits like disposition, maybe after awhile of observation. Production? That has to wait for peak laying season to determine if this bird is a layer, cannot judge that during molt, winter slow down or broody days.

As for the holes in the feet....nah...they aren't ruptured abscesses. I'm a nurse and am pretty familiar with abscesses of all kinds...if these were ever abscesses there would have been more maceration within the hole itself and I found none. Just a nice, healthy cavity impacted with debris....no signs of there ever having been a bad infection there. Inflammation from a foreign body within a body cavity, yes, signs of there having been an abscess, no.

 

[Loghousemom]

I'll tell you, I tried hay for deep litter and found the strands were too long for the birds to move and fluff when they got moist and so they would just lie there and form a cap and under the cap would often be mold.  Same with straw unless fine chopped.  Straw doesn't really absorb much either and takes longer to break down.  Also hard for me to move around as well either, so the bedding doesn't get aerated much when using these..... unless you live in a very dry climate and then the hay comes in real handy because of its natural moisture and how it will add to the balance of the dry droppings. 

The most success I've had on deep litter was mixing the shavings, leaves, even small amounts of shredded paper(and I do mean small and every so often, not a whole bunch all at once or it forms mold caps also) and it formed an ideal deep litter. 

A lot of folks warn against using leaves due to leaf mold but putting dry leaves into a nitrogenous storage will be ideal, particularly if the bedding is kept to a reasonably dry but not too dry state.  Think how good leaves break down in just a winter's time in a compost or on a garden.  And where do the worms and bugs like to live?  Not in so much in pine shavings, but they LOVE leaves. 

 

I think I will toss a load of leaves in there just to see. The coop has a dirt floor, but in places I can see there was at one time wood. (There are hard places where you can't shovel stuff around). It is also very very dry and dusty. I don't know if all coops with dirt floors are this way, but I opened up one of those little "windows" to help get air moving around so they don't breath in the dust. No real smell. I did remove the poo chunk spots under the roost because I had to do some work in that corner. I am scavenging myself some other branches or 2xs to use as a second roost. All the birds are using the one, but if I can get one to be broody and hatch chicks in the spring I will need more roost space.

Thanks again! Going to get some work done out there this weekend I hope. We have had terrible wind (30-40 mph) and I hate working out there in that.

 

[nyanamia]

Quote:
I second this. I'm soaking up all the info that I can, because I don't think keeping chickens should be as difficult as people make it out to be on the rest of this forum. To me, natural methods=common sense, otherwise, how else would humans have kept fowl for thousands of years? I don't comment because I don't have any chickens to talk about, but when I'm able to get some, I will be as prepared as I can be, thanks to Bee and everyone else who contributes to these threads!

Emily

 

[Shan30]

Love this thread/topic !!

I just returned to country life after 5 years in the city and swear I can feel my pulse slowing.

I forgot so much of what I've been missing, real food, real air, real water and best of all REAL PEOPLE! This thread took me right back to the farm...thanks for the giggles and tears!

 

[Beekissed]

I'm so glad you liked it!

I thought it would be fun to show all natural husbandry in action instead of just talking about it. Even more beautiful is natural husbandry in its pure form when you never have to deal with these types of issues because you are keeping everything in balance in the coop and soil environment and you have culled for any potential problems. Such a lovely rhythm and ease to keeping chickens when you never have to worry about parasites and illness!

As always, though I've shown how easy it is to right the wrongs in a flock, it was made much more easy because the ground work had already been done with this flock...I had raised them from chicks, didn't vaccinate or feed medicated feeds, had them out on free range within a couple of weeks of arrival, many of them were brooded by a hen as a foster mom and they were raised where it's country clean....fresh air coop, sunlight...lots of it in coop and on the range, fresh and simple foods, deep litter with all the good microbials and balanced soils.

Others who have not laid this type of groundwork from the beginning may not enjoy the same quick results I've had with this flock, so all need to be aware that it works better if it's an all or nothing deal...either you do the groundwork to produce a healthy flock and maintain healthy environment or the all natural remedies won't help as much. They will help but not as much as when starting out with a strong flock carrying hardy genetics that have been raised with an eye towards good immune system function.

Those getting into chickens and wanting to know about how to start chicks off right really need to heed that last paragraph...start 'em right and you will run into less problems later on.

 

[amenfarm]

wow...what an interesting thread. Sorry I just found it and am trying to catch up. I will def. be studying FF for a while

about time you made it over here bario! The pictures you posted reposted from the flock are just wonderful, i can't wait to get started on FF this spring--bright orange yolks--YUM! and I already have the oats, caught sealing from the donkey--again.

 

[Pozees]

Funny little update on the Gnarly Bunch: Middle Sister, the hen with the holes in her feet and inflammation from it all, was acting much more spry and active today since her doctoring of yesterday. Saw her killing a baby snake and running and running to keep the others off her find!

She had her neck out of her back and had very much the normal movement of a chicken, instead of the hunched sort of stance and walking she has been doing.

I'm thinking I will take the packing out of her feet tonight and let those glands close up and diminish without a foreign body inside them. I have a feeling that the ol' hen is out of the woods...and back into the real woods.

Thanks to Cowcreekgeek for sparking the idea to really examine her feet much more closely or I would have never seen those impacted glands way down in her crevices on the feet.

This is such thrilling news!!! I wonder if it isn't time for a new name for them, given their rapid recovery - maybe instead of the Gnarly Bunch they could be Bee's Bloomers???