The Seney thread

[Birkshire-Spur]

Yes, I have some.

There are about three other people with them as well.

No, they are not Easter Eggers.

Yes, they are a breed. A breed does not have to be listed in the Standard of Perfection to exist. Breeds were maintained long before that book came out. Look at Feathersite to see all of the breeds that exist. Most are not in the Standard of Perfection.

Yes,they are expensive. Each one kept costed about a thousand dollars in development costs from when the project started.

They are offered for sale at a high price to find serious breeders. Once established, they will come down to market price. Its just supply and demand at that point. For anyone wanting just a chicken, it is not the right breed for them... yet. If somebody figures out how to strike it rich selling a hobby chicken, please let us all know. Only Purdue has figured out how to make money with chickens and I do not see him on this board. The fact is, anybody that is silly enough to work this long to make a new breed certianly will lose money no matter how you slice it. But that is their decision. The fact that this work is being shared at all with anybody is generous. The fact that a completely new breed can be created is wonderful. Imagine a world with all White Leghorns. This board would not exist.

In regards to the pictures, if you look closely, you will note that the varied colors are in the history section. They no longer exist; they were just project birds. Other pictures of colors are listed in the new project or new colors section. Establishing a color is easy (for some colors and for some people) but creating a "type" is extremely difficult. Look closely. Furthermore, ANY breed will produce birds of varying shades. This is nothing new even for the "pure bred" show birds. Chickens simply have too many modifiers and too many alelles at any given locus point. If somebdy wants 100% consistency, buy a Mallard. With that said, there is an expected "reasonableness" for a certian level of consistency. If a breeder lists the variations of the shades, then that is a sign of an honest breeder.

And with that said, show quality Mille Fleurs that win shows do not match the descriptions in the Standard of Perfection. But heck, who doesn't like a good Mille Fleur? Threre are plenty of Standard of Perfection chickens that will never be true breeding, but they are listed anyways. Has anybody ever made a Golden Duckwing hen? Can't happen. Golden Duckwings are actually color mutts if one wants to split hairs. Many "trios" that are shown are the result of double breeding. In other words, they are not pure breeding birds. By design of the description of the Standard, they never will breed true. But that doesn't mean that these birds are mutts. They are all good birds.

As far as being a mutt, with all due respect, anybody that does not have a complete understanding of the chicken genome will not understand why they are not a mutt. To accuse somebody of peddling mutts without a solid understanding of the project or of the breed is very disrepectful indeed. Many decades have gone into producing the breeds that are presented at shows. And the fact is, the birds that are brought to shows are the best of the best; even for the breeders of these birds. If you ask some of them they will tell you that it may have taken them 200 chicks to get the 2 that were close enough to the standard to even be at a show. And with that, most win nothing if there is a lot of competition. When there is no competition, even poor quality "pure bred" birds can win. A mutt is simply an animal that when mated interse with its siblings will produce offspring where the majority do not match either parent.Jeffey's book explains how even "pure bred" birds have been found to be split (heterozygous) at many locus points. Dominnant alelles mask a lot of stuff.

Another point that has been missed are the traits that cannot be defined in a Standard of Perfection. The biggest is temperament. I saw one other guy with Seneys and his 6 year old was carrying around a Seney rooster that was the size of a large Barred Rock.

A second point missed is the cold hardiness. These birds are the Chanteclers of the USA, but with extremly fancy traits. Couple that with good egg laying and meat qualities and you have one well rounded bird for the family.

Happy hatching for 2012!

 

[poularde]

Ridiculous

I believe that anyone spends plenty of money to develop their birds. New breed or recognized. Those prices are just silly. Is this an advertisement?

 

[NYREDS]

There are many misconceptions & misrepresentations about what constitutes a "breed" in this thread. A breed, for the term to have any meaning, has to breed true & certainly has to be consistant in egg colour. This board is full of reports of new "breeds" but there's more to establishing a breed than naming the offspring of a cross.
The birds in question in this thread are mutts & I think I do have an understanding of chickens breeding.
This thread brings to mind quotes by two famous Americans:
"A fool & his money are soon Parted"
"There's a sucker born every minute"

 

[Birkshire-Spur]

Yes, they are a breed and many people love them.

Being self-righteous doesn't mean a person is right. It just means they think they are.

Wow, enough of the name calling for somebody's breed that they decided to get and really like.

BTW, the next show I go to I am going to stand next to the judge and ask him to wait for an egg to come out of a rooster so he can judge the egg color to be sure it conforms to the breed.

I pulled out my Standard of Perfection book and the only mention of egg color is under "Economic Qualities". In-fact, there is no disqualification of any bird for not having any particular egg color. There are even some breeds listed that can have two different egg colors. To quote the SOP: ” Recognizing the progressive development of the poultry industry, the desire of breeders to develop new breeds and varieties of fowls, the American Poultry Association desires to cooperate and assist such breeders in qualifying them for admittance to the Standard of Perfection." The operative word here is “cooperate” not “berate.”

People are getting more sophisticated at genetics and there are plenty of new breeds that can be made. Some extinct breeds could even be re-created with this knowledge. Many years ago (long before the flame throwers here were born) some people learned the genetics of the fowl and created the breeds that we have today. I bet they never intended that it would stop with them and that a new breed would never be possible afterwards.

Lighten up people, enjoy your own breed and leave people that decide to get a new breed alone. We enjoy our birds just as much as everyone else. There are many breeds of chickens I wouldn’t take if somebody were to give me money to take them. But I certainly understand why many people would actually pay to get them. Just chill and enjoy your hobby.


The fact is, if somebody does not have personal experience with a breed, they should not go off telling somebody that they are mutts and are only an F1 crossbreed. I have to question their intent; especially when their signature is advertising for you to buy their birds this spring. It is disrespectful to everyone that has to read these posts.

 

[NYREDS]

Since you're such an expert on the Standard I'm sure you're familiar with the process for having a new breed recognized. It's a bit more complex than simply having an individual proclaim that "yes they are a breed". Without a sanctioning body recognizing a breed an individuals claim has little merit.
Egg colour is a breed characteristic & the first disqualification listed in the general disqualifications is lacking in breed characteristics. Egg colour is rarely an issue in the show room as birds rarely lay while the judge is watching. That said, were an Auracana to lay a brown egg while the judge was watching that bird would be subject to disqualification. I assume you think your wait for a "rooster" to lay an egg was very cleaver. It really wasn't.
Not really sure where the name calling you referenced occured.

 

[TomNY]

It always amuses me that the people most vocal about what the APA should do are very rarely members and have no reason to think that as nonmembers their opinion has any value to the organization. Also remember that with the exception of the under-paid secretary all officers and committee members are unpaid volunteers. Tom

 

[Birkshire-Spur]

I just went out and had a conversation with my chickens and told them the bad news; that they don’t really exist.

Their reply was, “why?” as they all looked around twisting their heads to inspect each other.

They have been good chickens, pay their rent, and have done a wonderful job of behaving themselves; so I felt obliged to tell them.

Trying to break it to them as easily as I could, I continued, “You see, there are about 4 people in the world that feel that because you don’t belong to their clique, that you shouldn’t have a name or be considered as good as their own chickens. It’s kind of the arrogant high school girl syndrome.”

“How fair is that?” said Penelope, “What did we do to them?”

“Well Penelope,” I said, “You threatened their standing in their group - their small box of safety from reality.”

“That sounds childish to me!” stated Barney, as he shook out his feathers. “Do you want me to have a go at ‘um.”

“No no Barney, keep your spurs down. That won’t get you anywhere with these people; it just make things worse. They feed off of it and they like to come back and read their own garbage. It’s an addiction to them,” I explained. “And be sure not to judge everyone by these few arrogant people. Most of the people with chickens out there are really nice folks,” I reminded them.

“So what do we do?” asks Penny, as she gobbled down a bug.

“Nothing,” I said. “Do you believe that you exist?”

Everyone looks around nodding in agreement. “Yes we do, yes yes yes.”

“Yeah sir, we don’t need anybody telling us that we exist or not. And it isn’t about believing; it’s about what is. Just look around you. Here we are! Besides, I never saw any of them in our yard. How insensitive these people are!” said Cutesy Bell.

“Are you sure you don’t need me to have a meeting with these people?” said Barney, as he walked around with his chest puffed out.

“Hey Barney… chill out; we aren’t like them. Remember… we’re good chickens,” remarked Studebaker.

“Yeah, your right. Sorry about that everybody,” apologized Barney, looking a little ashamed.

“Hey sir!”

“Yes Barney! “ I remarked in a slightly frustrating tone.

“Uhh…we’re wondering…when do we get to see our kids?”

“In about six weeks. One set is two weeks old, the next is one week, and the third is hatching as we speak.”

“Wow sir, we can’t wait!” said Missy Lee anxiously, “who do they look like?"

“Well, they all look like you guys, of course.”

That was all they needed to hear. Everyone was now strutt’n their stuff and exchanging congratulations.

“You know sir; I’m going into the nest box right now to lay the prettiest light green egg. I bet it will make the perfect chick,” said Betsy.

“I’m right behind ya, Betsy”, exclaimed Tammy, “I’ll bet the chick that comes out of my tan egg will be a real looker too!”

“Oh, one other thing sir… is there a lot of these mean spirited people out there? I wouldn’t want a chick of mine going to their home. It doesn’t sound very welcoming.”

“Don’t’ worry Tabitha, I won’t send any of them there. Your chicks are only going to people that appreciate you,” I said assuringly.

“Thanks sir, that means a lot to us,” said Tabitha.

“You’re welcome. Now hop along, we all have plenty to do,” I reminded them.

“Last one out to the water pan is a rotten egg!” yelled Jacob.

Yes… life was good… really good.

 

[cashdl]

I went to their website and read through all the info. I found it interesting. I have no interest in having one of these chickens as I find the vulture hocks completely unattractive, however I realize that there are plenty of things about my choosen breed that others would find unattractive. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to spend that kind of money on a chicken that cannot be shown at an APA sanctioned show, but to each of his own.

Are they a breed? I have no horse in this race but the dictionary says:

a distinct animal or plant: a strain of an animal or plant with identifiable characteristics that distinguish it from other members of its species, especially one whose characteristics are preserved by controlled mating or propagation.

I guess they look distinct from other breeds considering the vulture hocks. ICK! LOL!

Are they a recognized breed according to the APA? No. How likely are they to become an APA approved breed. I would say, it will be a while. It took quite a few years for the Marans to become an approved breed by the APA and they were already a well know established breed in France.

There are plenty of breeds in other countrys that are well established and not APA approved and yet they are still considered breeds. It comes down to, if someone is willing to pay the money, more power to them.

I have been working on a project chicken for quite a few years now. By next year I should have all the components in place and they will breed true. I doubt anyone is ever going to pay that much for them, but I am not doing it for the money. Right now I sell the chicks for $5.00 each and have a waiting list. It pays for feed and running the incubator. Most importantly I am having fun.

Lanae

,

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

My goodness! They look identical to Ushankas!

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

The fact is, if somebody does not have personal experience with a breed, they should not go off telling somebody that they are mutts and are only an F1 crossbreed.

X2! I've been there - you tell people about a new breed, and it seems that everybody who likes it stays quiet and the people with uneducated opinions posts negative and false information about it. Like my Bessemer ducks - some people were even trying to tell me that they were sterile Mule ducks! Imagine! It seems people want snags. For me, I didn't know the weight of my breed, and all of a sudden it wasn't a breed. With the Seney, it seems to be the variable egg color. By the way, 'Undisclosed color' isn't
S/-; ap/ap;
is it?