The tiny serama; a Hatching adventure

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OK, so turning is a yes. I've seen a growing trend of peeps saying that they don't turn (mostly on social media platforms though, so you know how that is). I can't comment because I'm very inexperienced. I trust you a lot more than I trust the peeps saying not to turn however, so turning it is!
I try to do what broodies or wild birds do, they all turn their eggs. If the yolk sinks into the small end of the egg or lays against the side of the egg, should the embryo be developing in cramped quarters, it can hatch with a cross beak, curled toes, spinal issues, can't absorb the yolk right before hatch, no feet, and a host of nutrient deficiencies. People that don't turn their eggs are asking for trouble in my humble opinion.
 
I am pretty obsessed about turning eggs. 😁 I start turning eggs on day 1 if I have collected them from my flock. Shipped eggs I wait until day 4. Turning is so important to keep the yolk centered so the embryo has room to move and grow, turning also refreshes the food source they have consumed around them. Not turning enough leads to deformities and malnutrition of hatchlings.

Mine go straight into the turner when I set them, unless they're shipped eggs and then I put them in cartons similarly to how I do lock down in cartons and I'll sort of gently rotate them in the carton to turn them a few times a day after a day or two of letting them sit. I've found with shipping-damaged air cells that rotating them to turn them does significantly better than tilting them as my automatic turners do, so those are always hand rotated.



As far as turning duration, here's a solid study on stopping turning early.

The important part being:
Hatchability of Leghorn eggs was significantly decreased by cessation of egg turning after 10 days but was not affected when turning was stopped at 13 days. Hatchability of broiler breeder eggs was not significantly affected by [cessation of turning as early as day 10 in most cases] but was decreased following cessation of turning at Day 13 in [experiments where eggs were collected from slightly older birds, stored for 1-10 days, and moved between incubators to cease turning].
Content in brackets added by me for clarity.

They concluded in that article that there was no difference between turning until day 18 and stopping earlier at day 16, but it sounds like if you stop turning as early as day 13-14 there isn't a significant impact on viability of embryos.

And regarding turning during the first few days of incubation, there's this study where they turned eggs in four groups: only days 4-7, only days 8-11, like normal (days 1-18), and not at all. They found no significant difference in only turning days 4-7 and turning days 1-18. This one was much smaller scale than the above so take from that what you will, but it does sort of indicate that it isn't as important to turn them in the first few days of incubation.

So in conclusion, it seems to be most vital to turn day 4-13, but outside of that it does not seem to matter a whole lot. Breeds with unique needs like Seramas may not follow that rule, of course!



Interesting! I'd love to read that study if you can find it, but you've convinced me that candling on the important dates (7D, 14D, 18/17/16D) doesn't hurt the embryo! I guess I'll turn on the turner on day 4 or so, to be on the safe side of either case



ok now I DEFINITELY don't want Guineas🤣

I dug those up, too. It looks like there was a slight increase in embryo growth rate and hatch percentage in their lighted incubator in the experiment, so maybe increase in vigor wasn't quite the right way to put it?: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15222419/

That, of course, was 24/7 lighting from day 5 to 18, not just candling for a few minutes, so odds are pretty low you'd see any kind of change just for peeking every now and then, and especially not for candling on the normal day 7-14-18 (or 16 or 17) schedule. ;)


As far as Guineas go... Let's just say there was more to it than just the eggsplosions that made it so when my last one died I never got any more of them. 😅
 
OK, so turning is a yes. I've seen a growing trend of peeps saying that they don't turn (mostly on social media platforms though, so you know how that is). I can't comment because I'm very inexperienced. I trust you a lot more than I trust the peeps saying not to turn however, so turning it is!

Chickens are tough birds, tougher than a lot of people think. You can, in fact, incubate eggs without turning them and have normal, healthy chicks hatch. But that does not mean that it's the correct or optimal way of doing it, and it's well documented that the percentage of issues like deformity, embryonic death, and malpositions goes up when eggs don't get turned properly during incubation. The chance of causing those issues is too high for me to want to risk not turning eggs during incubation simply out of what seems to be apathy, personally.

Editing, to clarify, I mean the social media folks who say things like this seem to be apathetic, of course, not you, Fluffy! 😅
 
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Mine go straight into the turner when I set them, unless they're shipped eggs and then I put them in cartons similarly to how I do lock down in cartons and I'll sort of gently rotate them in the carton to turn them a few times a day after a day or two of letting them sit. I've found with shipping-damaged air cells that rotating them to turn them does significantly better than tilting them as my automatic turners do, so those are always hand rotated.



As far as turning duration, here's a solid study on stopping turning early.

The important part being:

Content in brackets added by me for clarity.

They concluded in that article that there was no difference between turning until day 18 and stopping earlier at day 16, but it sounds like if you stop turning as early as day 13-14 there isn't a significant impact on viability of embryos.

And regarding turning during the first few days of incubation, there's this study where they turned eggs in four groups: only days 4-7, only days 8-11, like normal (days 1-18), and not at all. They found no significant difference in only turning days 4-7 and turning days 1-18. This one was much smaller scale than the above so take from that what you will, but it does sort of indicate that it isn't as important to turn them in the first few days of incubation.

So in conclusion, it seems to be most vital to turn day 4-13, but outside of that it does not seem to matter a whole lot. Breeds with unique needs like Seramas may not follow that rule, of course!





I dug those up, too. It looks like there was a slight increase in embryo growth rate and hatch percentage in their lighted incubator in the experiment, so maybe increase in vigor wasn't quite the right way to put it?: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15222419/

That, of course, was 24/7 lighting from day 5 to 18, not just candling for a few minutes, so odds are pretty low you'd see any kind of change just for peeking every now and then, and especially not for candling on the normal day 7-14-18 (or 16 or 17) schedule. ;)


As far as Guineas go... Let's just say there was more to it than just the eggsplosions that made it so when my last one died I never got any more of them. 😅
You had me at PubMed 🙂
 
I try to do what broodies or wild birds do, they all turn their eggs. If the yolk sinks into the small end of the egg or lays against the side of the egg, should the embryo be developing in cramped quarters, it can hatch with a cross beak, curled toes, spinal issues, can't absorb the yolk right before hatch, no feet, and a host of nutrient deficiencies. People that don't turn their eggs are asking for trouble in my humble opinion.

Yup, exactly! Following what nature does is best!
 
About 6 years ago, I moved my hens from one building to another. I left my roosters in the original building. Unbeknownst to me, my broody Black Australorp had a nest hidden in a far corner covered in bedding. She had been in the new building for over a week. Well, one day I went to tend to the roosters. I heard peeping from inside. 😳 I opened the door to find the roosters near that corner just staring. I moved the bedding away to find 3 Australorp chicks. Imagine my total shock. 😮 It’s amazing that they weren’t killed and all were healthy, growing into beautiful hens and rooster. Anyhow, it was summer…. higher humidity and temperatures. I learned on that day to ALWAYS triple check every nook and crannie when I have a girl in broody mode. Long story, I know… but it ties in to the egg-turning discussion. 🙂
 
About 6 years ago, I moved my hens from one building to another. I left my roosters in the original building. Unbeknownst to me, my broody Black Australorp had a nest hidden in a far corner covered in bedding. She had been in the new building for over a week. Well, one day I went to tend to the roosters. I heard peeping from inside. 😳 I opened the door to find the roosters near that corner just staring. I moved the bedding away to find 3 Australorp chicks. Imagine my total shock. 😮 It’s amazing that they weren’t killed and all were healthy, growing into beautiful hens and rooster. Anyhow, it was summer…. higher humidity and temperatures. I learned on that day to ALWAYS triple check every nook and crannie when I have a girl in broody mode. Long story, I know… but it ties in to the egg-turning discussion. 🙂
Holy cow! That's incredible!
 
Mine go straight into the turner when I set them, unless they're shipped eggs and then I put them in cartons similarly to how I do lock down in cartons and I'll sort of gently rotate them in the carton to turn them a few times a day after a day or two of letting them sit. I've found with shipping-damaged air cells that rotating them to turn them does significantly better than tilting them as my automatic turners do, so those are always hand rotated.







As far as turning duration, here's a solid study on stopping turning early.



The important part being:



Content in brackets added by me for clarity.



They concluded in that article that there was no difference between turning until day 18 and stopping earlier at day 16, but it sounds like if you stop turning as early as day 13-14 there isn't a significant impact on viability of embryos.



And regarding turning during the first few days of incubation, there's this study where they turned eggs in four groups: only days 4-7, only days 8-11, like normal (days 1-18), and not at all. They found no significant difference in only turning days 4-7 and turning days 1-18. This one was much smaller scale than the above so take from that what you will, but it does sort of indicate that it isn't as important to turn them in the first few days of incubation.



So in conclusion, it seems to be most vital to turn day 4-13, but outside of that it does not seem to matter a whole lot. Breeds with unique needs like Seramas may not follow that rule, of course!











I dug those up, too. It looks like there was a slight increase in embryo growth rate and hatch percentage in their lighted incubator in the experiment, so maybe increase in vigor wasn't quite the right way to put it?: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15222419/



That, of course, was 24/7 lighting from day 5 to 18, not just candling for a few minutes, so odds are pretty low you'd see any kind of change just for peeking every now and then, and especially not for candling on the normal day 7-14-18 (or 16 or 17) schedule. 





As far as Guineas go... Let's just say there was more to it than just the eggsplosions that made it so when my last one died I never got any more of them. 



Thanks once again for the wealth of information! I'll have to compile everything I've learned, and post it here so all of yous can give your opinion, or improvements to my plan
 
About 6 years ago, I moved my hens from one building to another. I left my roosters in the original building. Unbeknownst to me, my broody Black Australorp had a nest hidden in a far corner covered in bedding. She had been in the new building for over a week. Well, one day I went to tend to the roosters. I heard peeping from inside. 😳 I opened the door to find the roosters near that corner just staring. I moved the bedding away to find 3 Australorp chicks. Imagine my total shock. 😮 It’s amazing that they weren’t killed and all were healthy, growing into beautiful hens and rooster. Anyhow, it was summer…. higher humidity and temperatures. I learned on that day to ALWAYS triple check every nook and crannie when I have a girl in broody mode. Long story, I know… but it ties in to the egg-turning discussion. 🙂

Wow! You hatched chicks like a bush turkey!
 

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