This is what a balanced layer feed with no treats delivers

[U_Stormcrow]

Are you sure about this? I thought the commercial and the byc layer feed is the same if its from same factory /same brand. And the producers only put the byc feed in bags and not in a silo.

Complicated answer. "Maybe". I live in "chicken country" SE US. We have a number of local mills.

I can go to the farm store and get Purena, Producers Pride, Dumor, Nutrina, etc and could order in Kalmbach and a handful of others. None of the commercial operations are using any of those feeds.

I can go to the local feed store and get feed from one of several local mills. Tucker Milling and Harrell Milling Company have most of the business around here. I buy in 50# bags. I could buy by the ton. Several smaller (independent) commercial poultry operations tend to do just that. But if you produce eggs or birds under contract to one of the big names (ConAgra, Pilgrims, Southern Pride, etc), you use their hens, in conditions meeting their specifications, using their feed, manufactured and tested to their specifications - which isn't sold for use by the rest of us.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

No, of course not. I want people to offer their birds real food, from which they can select what they want to eat at the time, not a homogenised pellet designed to deliver exactly the same nutrients in exactly the same doses in every mouthful every meal every day.

eta and even better if they can let their birds forage in the garden for a while every day to find the things they want or need there.

Which assumes that said owners are capable of providing a varied diet meeting said birds' needs. Most don't have the space, the time, the resources, or access to individual components at reasonable price.

Plenty of US owners are limited to six to twelve birds which must caged at all times in relatively small structures - that's typical of residential zoning (which is obviously subject to wide variance) throughout our nation. You need only hunt for "make at home feed recipes" on Facebook or Youtube to see the appalling state of ignorance on the subject.

I advocate for a balanced commercial feed for most BYCers in most situations, yes. because you know at least something about what's in it. Precisely because of the rampant ignorance out there - and because trusting that they will meet their nutritional needs "free ranging" on a monoculture of St Augustine, Bermuda, or Zoyosia grass in a couple hundred square feet of backyard (about which you know essentially nothing, nutritionally) is elevating ignorance over the science. Its hope and prayer, with something else's life on the line if you are mistaken.

 

[MrsNorthie]

@Perris I agree that commercial layer feed is not the complete or necessarily the right nutrition for the total flock. We started out with the traditional starter/grower, and at the appropriate age, Switched to a layer feed. In doing research, I learned that the calcium in the layer is not good for the roosters. I found your original "Wholesome Feed" article and found my tribe are much happier and healthier, they eat better, the girls consume the calcium when needed or when Blue tells them to because he thinks they need it.. LOL

I am having trouble always sourcing the the whole grains, so I sometimes use a premixed whole grain feed called Bangcock elite, but this also contains some pellets, which my crew will not touch and is only 16% protein, so I supplement with cooked split peas, barley, lentils, and field peas as well as a meat protein a couple of times a week. I am working sourcing some more wholesome grains, but I will only feed commercial feed when there is no other choice.

 

[FrostRanger]

You - we - know nothing about how that bird has been kept, except that it came from a commercial egg unit. What we do know is that all it ate was layer feed. I am trying to focus on the feed. I have repeatedly acknowledged that environment plays a role. Why doesn't anyone want to talk about layer feed? Why is everyone keen to speculate about anything else?

An experiment where other factors aren't accounted for and controlled won't produce scientifically useful results. The living situation of backyard and commercial chickens are so wildly different that you can't just say x caused y. That would be comparing apples to oranges. To say it's the feed you would have to split chickens of the same breed in the same kind of environment into groups, one fed the usual commercial feed and the other fed your homemade feed and then compare. Even then the results will only apply to that particular brand of commercial feed - unless you want to create groups for multiple brands - and your particular recipe. Provided the sample size is large enough, that then would be a meaningful comparison of the effects of feed type on general condition. Not saying diet doesn't have an effect on health, it obviously does, but there is so much going on with commercial birds that would cause them to look like that that we cannot say it was the food

 

[U_Stormcrow]

And since its been alluded to by several of the posters, for the benefit of those who haven't necessarily read all the research, here's an oldie. "Can the chick balance its ration"

Corn Meal
Wheat Bran
Wheat Shorts
Dried Buttermilk (I don't have a great source for this, this is the liquid form, 90% water)
Dried Skimmilk
Meat Scrap (this is a term of art. it is NOT a slice off last night's steak) Modern attempts will need to sub in fish meal or similar
Alfalfa Leaf meal (you may find soy meal easier to find - its better in many metrics, but not all)
Bone meal (just like it sounds)
Salt

Note that the study was just 8 weeks, produced more highly variable chicks compared to the standard ration, and I don't know sample size, but demonstrated that with enough choices, over time, chicks could average out a diet very similar nutritionally to the one that had been designed for them (the "Missouri ration" with its demonstrated/time proven results).

See also, this oldie.

But remember that the nutritional needs of a modern bird for optimum performance are much higher than the birds of the early 1900s. And we expect more of them in compensation for that more nutritionally dense diet.

 

[Perris]

how do you know it is layer feed?

I have addressed this a couple of times already in this thread. The photo is of a chicken that has just come out of an industrial egg production unit and is looking to be rescued by a kind-hearted member of the public via the British Hen Welfare Trust, whose website address is immediately below the photo and who organizes such rescues all over the country. Since they are industrial layers, they are precisely the birds for which commercial layer feed is designed, and that is what the farmer will have fed them exclusively to maximise his egg production and minimize his cost.

the birds in the photo are outdoors, in front of a large red shed building

The industrial units clean out their sheds of 10,000+ birds in one fell swoop, so the distribution hubs (which are only holding operations, so may have the birds in their stables, or a barn or suchlike while they've got them) take the lorry loads, and then deal with the members of the public coming to collect the lucky hens 3 or 6 at a time. It is all publicised well in advance (the date has not yet arrived for the one in the picture) to try to rehome them asap.

 

[nao57]

That chicken is not my chicken. It has come from an industrial egg unit. It is a commercial chicken. It has been raised to be a commercial egg layer. It has been fed industry standard feed to maximise its egg production. That is to say, it has been fed commercial layer feed and nothing else.

I do not understand why some of you don't get this.

I think its hard for people to accept because it means they have to change. Also not everyone does their own experiments anymore; I strongly urge this. And they also are taught to TRUST the authorities. But trusting blindly doesn't work in our age.

Also, an added reason why people don't see this is that if they live in a fertile climate zone their area may have more vegetation and bugs in it than the rest of us. And the chickens would be foraging the bugs and stuff they find, which can augment this.

But for myself and others we are living in areas that are basically really close to almost being desert. So the problem is more obvious to us because we don't have this other forage stuff that the birds can rely on. And the difference is... this buffer stuff that they find themselves from foraging is hiding how big the problem is. And that doesn't work much either because many people can't let their birds forage anymore because they run into predators, stray dogs, etc that eat their birds. (Most people don't let their birds free roam after their first predator experience.)

Anyway, this comment isn't adversarial. I just want to help. I feel grateful that any time I have a question about real life applied skills, farming, etc I can post here and within an hour I'll get help from someone. So I hope you guys see this place as a great place and not as a place to argue.

And I hope people will keep answering questions I post also.


But yes, I had to do my own experiments to see the feed mill stuff ALONE doesn't work. Often I would do ~80% mill, and then 10% sunflower seeds, and 10% barley seeds. This ratio worked pretty well to still get eggs.

But now the country is very troubled. Economically things are horrible... I wouldn't be surprised if I have to adjust that ratio again soon to account for new changes. Whenever there's an economic hiccup that's when they get tempted to cheat just a tiny bit of change in that stuff.

 

[Perris]

OK. Question for those who think 'complete balanced ration' provides everything a bird needs.

The American Livestock Conservancy advice I posted earlier (https://livestockconservancy.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Heritage_Chicken_Feed_Guidelines.pdf ) includes the phrase

a more nutritionally complete feed ration

What do you understand by the term 'complete feed'?

 

[Perris]

To piggy back here, most of us aren't recommending layer feed formulations either. "All Flock" type formulations are the overwhelming recommendation here on BYC by posters active on the feed forum, of whom I am one.

Indeed. And I'm glad you decided to join the discussion here.
My target is just layer feed.

 

[Perris]

Which assumes that said owners are capable of providing a varied diet meeting said birds' needs. Most don't have the space, the time, the resources, or access to individual components at reasonable price.

I would rather try to educate them than give up on them and their birds. The birds are capable of selecting their own, and do it much better than most keepers I suspect. If the garden is not manicured, sprayed, sterile, there will be goodies to find and eat. The longer it is left alone, and the more the chickens are left to their own devices in it, the better it will get. Ideally, of course. All the rewilding and regenerative projects show that.