This is what a balanced layer feed with no treats delivers

[Kenya Mwangi]

I do agree that I don't like all these vegetarian chicken feeds as chickens are indeed omnivores. I did see that Purina's high protein layer feed had black soldier fly larvae while I was perusing tractor supply the other day. I'm hoping that more brands will start using insects as an ingredient in a similar manner

Hello I think if enough people demand better real feed by not buying their other stuff, they will make it right so they don't go broke. Enough people are not likely to do it though because they might think feed is just feed.

 

[saysfaa]

...the average chicken that is not required to lay more than normal or grow big muscles.

Something to think about: what is average?

average of chickens before people started keeping them (12 to 30 eggs per year)?

Or average of previous centuries' birds - before people began wide-scale systematic selection for high production (55 eggs per year)?

Or average of today's birds?

where the 30 breeds of "fair layers" at an example hatchery (Murray McMurray) lay up to 150 eggs per year, the 60 breeds of "good layers" lay 150-220 eggs per year, the 19 breeds of "better layers" lay 220-280, and the 8 breeds of "best layers" lay 280-365 eggs per year.

7 of the 8 "best layers" are among the best sellers.

All of the "fair layers" are among the rare breeds.

50 of the 60 "fair layers" are among the rare breeds.

Even you exclude all of the big commercial egg farms and look at only the backyard flocks, this indicated the average is very high compared to either of the above options.

I wonder if that is the reason france has 10% protein feed and they call it high protein, but US has 16% to 20%.

Yes. Europe allows a lot more individual amino acids than just Met.

Also it said algea has high methionine. I wonder if it is beneficial to leave the algea growing in the chicken drinkers that we all brush out.

Which algae makes a tremendous difference. Some are extremely poisonous (not usually found in drinkers), most are benign but not nutritious for chickens.

Algae has a very high water content; unless it is dried, chickens wouldn't be able to eat enough to make a difference. That is assuming they would eat it in significant quantities.

Not cleaning the drinkers allows other things to grow also.

...And it is only allowed for poultry.

Herbivores can make the Met they need. Most livestock are herbivores. Pigs are also omnivores, and Met is added to at least some pig feed.

Something I wonder is why some people didn't want synthetic met to continue. ...

Because they would like "organic" to mean no synthetics.

And many of the same people who make the most noise about no synthetics are the same people who promote plant-based food in preference to animal-based food.

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

Something to think about: what is average?

Hello Oh I see. I meant average for todays chicken like if todays chicken had 3 options of food, 1. Designed to not miss a beat for producing eggs day after day/grow big muscles fast (like a athlete diet) 2. Designed to be eaten freely when the chicken feels like that is what it wants with only nutritious options and without junk food (like a average healthy diet) 3. Designed wrong with poor nutrition. (like a diet of junk food without nutrients)


Oh that is good to know. Definitley going to keep cleaning drinkers.

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

And many of the same people who make the most noise about no synthetics are the same people who promote plant-based food in preference to animal-based food.

Hello I wonder how many of them want omnivore based food.

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

Hello To me whenever someone says always use a complete and balanced commercial feed I think of the movies when the CIA tells someone they are taking them to a "safe and secure" location for their protection.

 

[Chris2018]

What do you both think industrial layers eat?

Yes, they do feed a complete feed BUT they also feed the minimal amount of feed per bird and in most cases a minimal amount of protein (15 percent) for egg production.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A couple things I noticed is that this is mainly for meat and broiler birds and production layers. I think I will continue to look for the diet that is for the average chicken that is not required to lay more than normal or grow big muscles.

Good luck on your search. I think you will find that the studies are mainly paid for by the commercial operations. They are the ones with the money to pay for those studies. They have no interest in the average" chicken. It can be challenging and frustrating to find any studies that do not pertain to the egg laying or meat producing chickens.

Yes, they do feed a complete feed BUT they also feed the minimal amount of feed per bird and in most cases a minimal amount of protein (15 percent) for egg production.

The egg laying hybrids used by the commercial egg laying industry are fairly small chickens that lay a fairly large egg for their body size. They are bred to convert a large part of what they eat into egg production as opposed to needing it for body maintenance. If they fed a higher percentage protein the eggs would be much larger and cause health issues like internal laying, egg binding, or prolapse in those smaller bodies. A good farmer does not feed their animals in a way that will harm them. That is inefficient.

There is another part of this. If they are fed a high protein diet they are more prone to releasing more than one yolk per day. This can lead to more double yolked eggs in a day which is not efficient. Or if the yolks are released at different times this can lead to two or more eggs laid in one day. Since a hen generally produces enough shell material in a day for only one egg, if she produces more eggs the second ones are typically very thin shelled or no-shelled, which does not work well with their egg handling equipment. If two eggs are in the shell gland at the same time they mark each other which makes them not suitable to go into an egg carton for the general public.

The profit margins are too tight on the commercial egg farms to spend more money for a higher protein feed that will injure the hens and produce fewer good quality eggs to sell.

 

[saysfaa]

... If they fed a higher percentage protein the eggs would be much larger and cause health issues like internal laying, egg binding, or prolapse in those smaller bodies. A good farmer does not feed their animals in a way that will harm them. That is inefficient.
There is another part of this. If they are fed a high protein diet they are more prone to releasing more than one yolk per day. ...

Thank you.
I've been seeing how parts of a system taken without the rest of that system tends to not work well or worse.

I hadn't considered what you said here in this way before but it makes sense.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The studies comparing CP in production layers found that going from 16% CP to 20%CP while maintaining similar AA profiles resulted in... A couple % greater egg production, a couple % larger eggs. a slight improvement in behavior (an admittedly fuzzy metric). Overall health (as measured by Mortality) was probably better, but not statistically significant.

How does that translate to hard numbers? A bird that would have produced 300 eggs its first cycle, on average, now produces between 306 and 309 on average. Average egg size increases 1 gram on average.

The difference in price, however, is close to 20% more expensive.

Quite simply, commercial margins are so tight the math doesn't work.

 

[Chris2018]

The egg laying hybrids used by the commercial egg laying industry are fairly small chickens that lay a fairly large egg for their body size. They are bred to convert a large part of what they eat into egg production as opposed to needing it for body maintenance. If they fed a higher percentage protein the eggs would be much larger and cause health issues like internal laying, egg binding, or prolapse in those smaller bodies. A good farmer does not feed their animals in a way that will harm them. That is inefficient.

I understand what you're saying Ridgerunner but a commercial layer like the Hy-Line Brown and the Hy-Line Silver Brown average a weight of 4.65 to 5.50 pounds and average an egg size from medium for the Hy-Line Silver Brown to a large for the Hy-Line Brown on a recommended 16.5 to 17.0 percent protein feed it's when an egg farm has a performance line like say the Hy-Line and uses a lower quality feed that is 15 percent protein and they are still feeding the birds the recommended amount of feed for a higher quality feed that is 16.5 percent protein that the birds can't hold weight and there health suffers.
When these performance line of layers start getting a feed over an 18 percent protein and kept in a small environment, they will start showing health issues like the ones you listed.

I myself have around 100 commercial layers (Hy-Line, Novogen ISA's) and they do well on an 18.0 percent protein feed BUT they also have plenty of room to move around indoors and out.