This place has gone mad!

[welsummerchicks]

Also incorrect. There is no diagnosis of 'sociopath', it is a media and pop culture term only, and it basically means nothing and everything, and is nothing more than a vague adjective. There is anti-social personality disorder which is used for a specific pattern of behavior, and it is legally recognized. That disorder, however, does not legally excuse or mitigate crime.

But to be perfectly frank, NO mental disease in and of itself automatically mitigates or excuses crime.

Nor does the LEGAL definition of 'insanity' have the SLIGHTEST thing to do with any diagnosis of mental illness. Diagnoses are medical and insanity is an ancient legal concept and never the twain shall meet or have the slightest thing to do with each other.

It is a very fixed and basic principle of American law that the mentally ill are 'equal' to the non mentally ill, and that in general, there is no built in 'excuse' or even mitigation, for murder or similar violent crimes, that is guaranteed to accompany any mental disorder.

It is not even a guarantee that a mental disease will be seen as relevant at all to a case, criminal or otherwise.

But do understand: the 'insanity defense' and similar pleas, are the rarest used and the rarest won pleas currently and in the history of the American judicial system.

The plea 'guilty but insane' mostly determines WHERE the convicted criminal serves his time.

Plus, keep this in mind: Historically, any time a person has WON an 'insanity defense' they have served far longer in a locked mental institution than they would have if merely 'guilty' and sent to jail. But that is changing. The only current trend for lengthy incarceration of supervision of any kind for any crime, is for sexual violent crimes against children.

 

[redhen]

nope.. i'm not wrong.. sociopath is an actual psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM...
but you cant be diagnosed until you are 18 years old...
Just had class on this yesterday actually...

And i never said that having a mental disease like scizo, automatically negates any legal responsibility ... never said that...
Please dont put words into my mouth and twist what i said.. it truly annoys me.

I have to agree though.. that the jails are FULL of truly insane people... scizos and more...they do not usually 'get off' because they are mentally ill..
Then..they become the sociopaths next victims while in jail... i honestly feel that anyone with a real mental illness should not be put in jail with the general poulation... its just not right...
They should be housed in a totally seperate area to be protected from the other inmates..

Also..i'll have to disagree with you.. child sex offenders dont get very much jail time at all... not at all... not when you think about the actual crime... and it makes me so sick.

 

[welsummerchicks]

By law, all people are responsible for their actions under the law. No disease or condition changes that basic fact.

And I never said that you said that schizophrenia mitigates anything. The facts are posted for general information on the subject. You're twisting my words,

And there is no diagnosis of sociopath in the current DSM. You are incorrect. Your class material, then is also incorrect, but that is not unusual. It is extremely common for class materials to use older, non-current terms, or to use popular terms instead of the diagnosis' real name. There USED to be a diagnosis of 'sociopathy' in SOME diagnostic systems.

"Profile of the Sociopath. This website summarizes some of the common features of ... it has been termed "antisocial personality disorder" in the DSM-III and DSM-IV."

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Ahh..i see what you mean now....
yes.. i know.. they are calling it anti-social personality disorder... ( i just have always used the term sociopath.. as do my co-workers also)

Now i get ya! i guess it was a misunderstanding..

 

[welsummerchicks]

A very common one. Class materials often use older or currently popular terms. In any case I'm delighted you got involved in the conversation. Please say exactly what you want and please don't worry about whether I'm going to agree or not. That's not what I am ever involved in this topic to accomplish.

But to respond, I disagree that 'sociopaths can stop themselves and schizophrenics can't'. It's so much more difficult and complicated than that and each case is different.

On a side note, the KIND of violence of the rare violent schizophrenic is almost always typical. It just is different from most other violent crimes. Of course there are exceptions. But...after a while, you get kind of a feel for this sort of thing. I don't really want to detail this on a family website, but there are some surprisingly consistent things. I now will sometimes read news reports and (if the news report is accurate!) will think to myself, 'oh.....no....' and not be surprised later to find the person was mentally ill, sometimes the diagnosis is even obvious.

Are these crimes a big surprise? Rarely. I also could touch on the subject of how often these violent crimes are foreseen by friends and family, they BEG for help, in the case of the ill person, THEY often beg for help too and give ample warning (like Andrea Yates). QUITE often, you will find that a doctor SAW this person and reported emphatically, that this person was a danger to self and others and that the person even took THEMSELVES to a hospital and checked THEMSELVES in AND a doctor said they were a danger to self and others!! (in the case of the VA tech killer).

Sometimes, some schizophrenics can't stop themselves. Sometimes they can. I've seen both in the same person in the same day. Sometimes during a more severe bout of symptoms they can't control their behavior and sometimes they can. For many people the symptoms vary even day to day. For some the symptoms are so much worse at night that what they can keep a lid on in the morning blows up in their face at night.

What is boils down to is at times, that they simply cannot control their own behavior, the thought occurs and the act occurs, they simply can't control that, like my friend's brother who after a lovely afternoon, while still in a very nice mood, surrounded by people who loved him and cared about him, jumped off their roof and died, 'for no reason'. It left the family devastated and questioning. 'It made no sense'.

Normal people have thoughts constantly, that they do not act on, in fact, they hardly even notice that the thought occured. In the schizophrenic, it's possible the thought doesn't get 'pruned' out properly by the brain, instead, it is acted on.

MANY people who are socially objectionable have a mood disorder. People with mood disorders plumb the depths or skate on the highest highs. When 'up' they may gamble, sleep around, have sudden angry outbursts or throw their money around irresponsibly. Some people are not bad enough to get a diagnosis, but drive people around them to distraction with their erratic up and down behavior.

Other socially objectionabe people are on drugs or alcohol. The problems that lead them to addiction may be nowhere near as severe as the consequences of their drunk or high behavior, but many are unlikely to change and quit - not all, thank God. GENERALLY....when someone has a very, very severe and persistent addiction, despite tons of negative consequences, I tend to think the addiction has become their way of avoiding other problems. People often start drugging and drinking instead of dealing with a mental problem...that only makes it worse.

Others are socially objectionable because they are greedy, selfish or dishonest. There is no diagnosis for that. That just IS. I spent years around a person who was a chronic liar and could never be trusted to do her work or be honest. Not a thing wrong with that gal except that she was taught by a family member that the way to get rich and comfortable was to rip people off. She had some loyalty to her children, but not a lot.

People become 'sociopaths' for many reasons.

But not every violent law breaker is a real antisocial personality disorder/sociopath/psychopath. A TRUE sociopath cares for NO ONE. He isn't some dumb poor stupid kid brainwashed to join a political cause or extremist group that he comes to believe in. He isn't a criminal loyal to his pals in a gang. He isn't a junkie who steals to get drugs, and brings them home for his 'lady' and him. He truly does not care about ANYONE. His behavior is impulsive and self serving and unpredictable. He's just as likely to lash out at someone he professes to 'love' as a total stranger. He doesn't treat a select group close to him well - he cares about NO ONE.

I am going to bring down the ire of the entire board for being a 'bleeding heart liberal', but I do believe that in some cases, SOME CASES, when a person does not abandon a destructive behavior after repeated jailings, punishments and consequences, there indeed, could very well be something 'wrong with his brain'. No, don't jump up and down and say that I am advocating that no one is responsible and that's why the world is going to H-E-double hockey sticks. I'm not saying that. I'm saying behavior is connected to the condition of the brain in some cases of destructive behavior.

My friend's son who steals their money and leaves his apartment knee deep in pizza and chicken bones isn't mentally ill, but about a fourth of the front of his brain was destroyed when his bio-dad beat him over the forehead with a steel pipe. They spent 20 years being accused and blamed by everyone who knew them or came in contact with them. An MRI revealed the truth. The part of that kid's brain that would help him think straight and make good decisions, IT WAS GONE.

Jeffrey Dahmer was a miserable human being. Severely depressed from a very young age, never diagnosed or treated properly, ignored by family, who was busier fighting with each other than wondering why he was becoming so strange. He started drinking to incredibe excess, and I think what little sense he had, he wittled away at by substance abuse. But that's what sick people do, they avoid help. They don't all turn in to Dahmers, thank God. If he had been in a family that was willing and able and educated to fight for his mental health from an early age, I'm convinced all his victims would be alive today.

 

[redhen]

I agree ...
well.. not sure about the Jeffery Dahmer part... not sure... its truly hard to say what triggered him..and if it was truly caused by his family and neglect.. and what may have prevented him from doing the things that hes done...
This whole sociopath thing is still so open to speculation...
Some cases are very clear.. severe childhood abuse and such...
but what about the others? The ones with good parents and such... what happend to them?
Will mom and dad fighting and neglecting you a bit cause you to keep peoples heads in your fridge?? Yet... some kids that are severly abused mentally and physically for years and turn out okay... not perfect... but not sociopaths either....
And like you said... not all sociopaths are serial killers.. actully very few..
the range is just so immense... they can be anything from street walkers to bus drivers to even a teacher or nurse...
What causes it? I dont think that anyone truly knows...

 

[welsummerchicks]

I disagree with one point, while I am SURE abuse can cause a great deal of anguish and difficulty later in life, I do not feel childhood abuse causes mental illness per se, i feel mental illness starts well before birth.

What I think abuse DOES do, is make it far LESS likely that the person gets help. And that can make a huge difference in out come. Add all the problems of abuse to an existing mental illness, and now the person is not just coping with their symptoms and their disease, but also a lack of trust, a lack of a support system, and a lack of a positive feeling that anything good is going to come of his/her life.

I'll give an example. One man wrote that when he had is first severe episode of bipolar, his mother marched into the hospital, demanded 'WHERE IS MY BOY?' and sat down at his side, gripped his arm firmly and said, 'You and I, we are going to get through this'. Afraid to march into the 'mental ward'? Not her. Denying it was happening? Not on your life.

She stayed there at his side for hours, and would not leave until well after visiting hours, saying 'No one will keep me from my son when he needs me'. He said that during all the ensuing years of highs, lows, hospitalizations, HE BELIEVED always, that he was going to make it. Learn to control his disease instead of it controlling him. Because of how his mother responded. He FOUGHT to get it under control. By his own account, he had very, very severe disease. And his thought of hope often came at the lowest times, such as after he had slugged a nurse and was sedated and woke up in restraints so he could not claw his own face. He would wake up and say, 'I am going to win this fight'. He fought for the right medicines that helped him, and he pushed his doctors just like his mother had. HE...NEVER...GAVE...UP. It is not that every kid with a tiger for a mom will get well and be magically cured, it is they are more likely to have hope, to get help.

Starting treatment quickly is critical. And folks with non abusive parents are far more likely to get that. They are also more likely to get acceptance, understanding, two parents who team up and help each other out and give each other breaks and rests, and siblings that are protected, loved and safe, so they can love their ill sibling without fearing for their own lives.

In contrast, the people I know who were abused and mentally ill, they had a mental illness to cope with, WITHOUT the support network, without the feeling they could find someone who would help, without the feeling of HOPE.

I would also add, there are some people you can't help. It is not always the sickest people, either. Sometimes you do your best and it just isn't enough. Sometimes nothing is enough. Been to enough funerals to know that. All people can do is all they can do.

But I hope people act, and vote, not out of hatred or disgust for people with problems, or resentment of the past or brainwashing from some politician, but out of the knowledge that education, hard work, a great health care team, hope and understanding makes things better.

 

[Organics North]

Humans don't cull the weak stock

He did "cull" himself.....

Imagine us handling genetics like we handle politics...

Oh wow.. I can not believe you typed that......??! Don't people like Hitler come to mind for you? Things like genocide? So where do we begin culling? Race? Ethnicity? IQ scores? Or do we just fight it out and the winners kill of the losers? This really sounds like some sci-fi horror flick...

I suppose it would work out well for me considering I am a blue blooded East German.. We all know Germans are superior genetically...after all we are the best warriors, the best engineers and so forth. Our ridged structured genetic code keeps us focused and on task...
Yep cull the mutts....

Seriously though the fact that the more educated, and better off a population becomes the less they breed and reproduce... Since mandatory sterilization of poor people is not an accepted option.... The next best thing is to educate and help those in need so they become more comfortable, then they will control their own populations... Really part of the problem in my opinion is the way we deal with the poor, mentally or physically ill in this nation the USA.. Countries like Finland and other European countries who have a much more robust safety net rarely has events such as this occur. (Yes it still happens but not nearly as often as here.)
So to solve the problem? Invest in education and healthcare.

Jeffrey Dahmer was a miserable human being. Severely depressed from a very young age, never diagnosed or treated properly, ignored by family, who was busier fighting with each other than wondering why he was becoming so strange. He started drinking to incredibe excess, and I think what little sense he had, he wittled away at by substance abuse. But that's what sick people do, they avoid help. They don't all turn in to Dahmers, thank God. If he had been in a family that was willing and able and educated to fight for his mental health from an early age, I'm convinced all his victims would be alive today.

Having lived in Milwaukee during the Dahmer years I am way to familiar with the story..... Family, co-workers, law enforcement, society at large, failed over and over with him. In hindsight there were dozens of opportunities to see this man needed help. Nope people turned and looked away. Even the homophobic police force failed in such a monumental way. Sending a bleeding from the anus and obviously drugged and dazed young man back to Dahmer, while making homosexual jokes.....
Udder completely disgusting... The murders continued, the officers were promoted.

Why do these things happen? We as Americans need to look in the mirror... It is our own doing.​

 

[PineappleMama]

Okay, I deleted my post but it's still being quoted so for the record I don't think we SHOULD cull, not saying that, not suggesting it as a course of action, I'm only pointing out that we don't do it... for very obvious moral reasons, it's part of what makes us human these morals and it's a good thing they're there.

I was simply pointing out the difference in how we handle animal stock vs human stock ... we do not breed to remove "faults" we breed willy nilly with survival of the species really being towards the bottom of the list of motivators... lust, love, pride (human emotions) are generally at the top... instinct to breed is there, no doubt, but it's not governed by the same things as it is in the animal kingdom. The biggest buck doesn't always get the girl... the skinny nerd can because he makes her laugh... just an example. The big buck would produce big strong offspring, most likely to survive harsh conditions... which is why he's chosen as a mate in the wild... but that's just not the primary focus of human mate selection.

Also, people with a known 'fault' aren't banned from breeding (urk Gattica much?) so those 'faults' continue to be passed on... Not at all how we handle livestock... sure we might let all the males grow to full slaughter size, but we only allow the biggest, healthiest, have-traits-we-want-passed-on to breed with the cows. I remember studying hemophilia in Bio, did y'all?? About how it was really common in this particular family because they only married their own kind thus the 'fault' was not only passed in the normal way, but compounded in double doses?

In nature the weak don't survive, natural selection thus they cannot pass those weakened traits on... only the strong survive and thus pass that strength on to the next generation. That just does not happen in humans. We've altered natural selection with our science. Derned glad of it else I'da been dead within two weeks of birth (allergic to formula), I'm not saying it's bad. Again, just pointing out a difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom. Also, when we see a runt we don't just say to heck with it and take care of the strong ones. We fight for the little guy! That's part of what makes us human as well. Even if it means less food for us, less water, etc we'll still risk our own strength and survival to save another, even when we KNOW they're gonna die we still will do this.

In addition to just neglecting a weakling we most certainly do not cull them. We have NICU, Children's Hospitals, etc BILLIONS every year spent to SAVE weak children. We fight for those that cannot survive on their own. Those children grow up, get jobs, marry and have babies just like anyone else (as they should!!) and they risk passing on their weaknesses to their children... just as I have. Do not in any way blame them for wanting babies, I'd be a bloody hypocrite if I did.

I was not in ANY way shape or form advocating culling/selective breeding in humans. Not at all. I wouldn't bloody be here! I was just voicing an opinion that it appears that perhaps the differences in how we breed, as opposed to other mammals, hasn't always led to the strongest, wisest, most stable people being the only ones to survive. That in OUR species the weak can and do (every day!) survive. And I honestly do not think I'm the only one who may have noticed this since nowadays people are being checked for genetic disorders before they try having kids!! It's even mentioned in DS's Life Science book... so clearly at least some others have thought about our breeding practices and what might be done to improve the health and well being of our offspring even before conception.

*runs away from pyre*

 

[Telamon]

Hmm. it was probably either:

an accident (2%)

a random shooting (98%)