This place has gone mad!

[Dunkopf]

Quote:
He did "cull" himself.....

Imagine us handling genetics like we handle politics...

Oh wow.. I can not believe you typed that......??! Don't people like Hitler come to mind for you? Things like genocide? So where do we begin culling? Race? Ethnicity? IQ scores? Or do we just fight it out and the winners kill of the losers? This really sounds like some sci-fi horror flick...

I suppose it would work out well for me considering I am a blue blooded East German.. We all know Germans are superior genetically...after all we are the best warriors, the best engineers and so forth. Our ridged structured genetic code keeps us focused and on task...
Yep cull the mutts....

Seriously though the fact that the more educated, and better off a population becomes the less they breed and reproduce... Since mandatory sterilization of poor people is not an accepted option.... The next best thing is to educate and help those in need so they become more comfortable, then they will control their own populations... Really part of the problem in my opinion is the way we deal with the poor, mentally or physically ill in this nation the USA.. Countries like Finland and other European countries who have a much more robust safety net rarely has events such as this occur. (Yes it still happens but not nearly as often as here.)
So to solve the problem? Invest in education and healthcare.

Jeffrey Dahmer was a miserable human being. Severely depressed from a very young age, never diagnosed or treated properly, ignored by family, who was busier fighting with each other than wondering why he was becoming so strange. He started drinking to incredibe excess, and I think what little sense he had, he wittled away at by substance abuse. But that's what sick people do, they avoid help. They don't all turn in to Dahmers, thank God. If he had been in a family that was willing and able and educated to fight for his mental health from an early age, I'm convinced all his victims would be alive today.

Having lived in Milwaukee during the Dahmer years I am way to familiar with the story..... Family, co-workers, law enforcement, society at large, failed over and over with him. In hindsight there were dozens of opportunities to see this man needed help. Nope people turned and looked away. Even the homophobic police force failed in such a monumental way. Sending a bleeding from the anus and obviously drugged and dazed young man back to Dahmer, while making homosexual jokes.....
Udder completely disgusting... The murders continued, the officers were promoted.

Why do these things happen? We as Americans need to look in the mirror... It is our own doing.​

Bravo. That's all I can say.

 

[dawg53]

I apologize for unknowingly shaking a hornets nest.

 

[Organics North]

PineappleMama,
Indeed our species is attempting to deviate from the laws of the natural world..! IMO The world, our country would be a better place if there were more folks at least contemplating these complex issues... Not that any of us have the answers... But at least thinking about it..

(Thanks Dawg53 for the thread,, IMO it is good for us all to think about what causes those horrible events..)

Be Well everyone, have a safe night.
ON

 

[PineappleMama]

Quote:
Naw, it was me misspeaking that did it I think, hence my apology in red and removal of the offensive post.

I owe you a big one for sidetracking your entire topic and if the Modly Ones wanna just totally cut all my posts in here I'm 100% okay with it. Their call.

Things like this are just so senseless, to me at least, there's enough crud in the world without going out and making a whole new batch. I just can't wrap my head around this sort of thing. All we can do is our best to make sure we don't do such a thing, and raise our kiddos so they hopefully don't... just a big ol' mess... maybe that's why I went on the science tangent... hoping to find a why? Possible I guess. Heck if I can't understand my own head what chance have I got of understanding this guy's?!

 

[welsummerchicks]

What causes the severe mental illnesses? There are about 150 or 200 genes that control brain and nerve growth, that are very good candidates and are being researched now. Genes occur not only how the brain operates every day, but how it grows from conception on, as well as how it goes through each rapid growth stage, at 1 1/2, at 7, in the teen years and in the early adulthood(gee, isn't it interesting that most severe mental disorders and developmental disorders show themselves at just about those times??). Research already ties most symptoms of these disorders to specific neurotransmitters and cells, with each one controlled by multiple genes.

Another important factor is genetic mutation, and generally, mutations that are NOT 'inherited'(nor caused casually by the external environment - genes are extremely hardy and robust), they occur in one person, and are not usually inherited, but occur 'de novo' (in that one person). Some researchers today say that 100% of the risk of schizophrenia will be confirmed to be these unique mutations in the next 5 years. I'm not sure it will happen quite that quickly. But I do think that eventually, research will indicate that schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and OCD are 100% biological-neurological disorders. I think the professions that profit from our belief that these are not 100% bio-neurological will fight that tooth and nail. But these disorders will never, ever be most effectively treated, or most cheaply treated, by medication alone. Research has already proven that.

What causes problems in daily living? Addictions? Bad behavior? Dispresectful kids? Probably not the same genes and not the same mutations. Learning may be a factor, as might be the person's own tendencies and personality. What determines personality? How a person's brain is built and architected, and experience and learning. How much of each? That's been argued since humankind has existed.

There is no information about the person, there is barely any information about the crimes. And some of it was reported incorrectly. Speculation about what the acts of THIS criminal mean are premature, but general discussions aren't.

If we ever get to the point where we take the lives of young children because of what their father did, I do not want to live in that world. I prefer the rule of law by law, and I prefer a world where vigilantism and revenge are not the chief methods of social control.

Rather than see mentally ill people left to deteriorate and die or commit the rare violent crime, I would like to see mental ilness diagnosed, treated, and mentally ill people respected, cared for and understood without any shame or secrecy, rather than hated or made the feature of a chop chop movie.

Rather than people who know absolutely nothing about it, screaming from the rooftops that treatment is useless and ineffective and dangerous and people should get well by 'concentrating' and 'thinking good thoughts' or being exorcised, I'd rather mental illness be discussed openly, knowledgeably, and medication recognized for the tool it is. It is very effective when coupled with good general health care, a respectful and interested doctor, and a health care system that does NOT feature 10 minute visits every 4 months, inadequate general medical oversight for people with serious neurological disease, poor nutrition, no fitness program and no meaningful activities in a culture where people are generally hidden or ignored or whispered about or called names.

In many ways, severe mental illnesses are the most poorly handled diseases. Compared to other neurological disorders, the 'effective care' of severe mental illnesses is an outrage and a disgrace. The lack of insurance coverage is another national disgrace, not that for profit insurance companies come up with these asinine schemes, but that people let them get away with it.

There always has been, and always will be, violence in the world. There will never ever be 'one solution'. You can 'cull' every single violent and every single mentally ill person and there will be just as many the next generation. It simply is NOT inherited in the way people usually think of heredity. Severe mental illness is not anyone's fault or because of something anyone did, or didn't do.

But most violent crimes, even multiple murders, are not committed because of a person being mentally ill.

 

[PineappleMama]

Quote:
I donno about just as many... since I imagine there are SOME things that are genetic so those'll be out... and the ones that might have "turned out that way" due to being raised in that environment (totally NOT genetic) might be averted... but then again, could very well be that by getting out the 'weak ones' then all the strong ones would have to go head to head with other strong ones... simple name-calling and a shove wouldn't be enough, you'd have to escalate to prove you're better ... so that could totally backfire.

SOOO many possibles, that could never be totally predicted... not telling what a nightmare it could cause... and not even counting humans knack for bucking the system at every chance.... oh yeah chaotic as it is I still think our willy nilly breeding is the best thing for us. The simple fact that the vast majority of people are don't harm their own kind, not cannibals, obey the law, etc etc... that says a LOT I think.

Ohhh just thought of something... why do we call it a gene pool? Pools have filters and chemicals and whatnot... seems like gene pond would be a bit more accurate... or maybe ocean... yeah, prolly better given the insane amount of diversity without our species. Ah, yet another random thought. *shrug*

 

[redhen]

I really believe that some mental illnesses are sometimes passed down the genetic line...
Schizo for one of them..
I'm doing donor egg IVF this month.. and i'll tell you what... the doctors wont even touch a donor with any major mental illnesses in the family line..
Theres a reason for that.. and i'm thankful that they are smart enough to do the screening... because as i said.. i believe that some mental illnesses can be passed down the line..

 

[welsummerchicks]

I donno about just as many... since I imagine there are SOME things that are genetic so those'll be out...

--Remember, Hitler had just about every mentally ill person executed in multiple countries...and there were just about as many in the next generation after that. As I stated numerous times, 'genetic' does not mean 'kill them all and you'll never see that disorder again'. It is simply not that simple. We are not talking about chestnut coats in Quarter Horses here.

and the ones that might have "turned out that way" due to being raised in that environment (totally NOT genetic) \\

-- Do you really believe that anyone's behavior, ANYONE'S - is ever 'totally not genetic'?

might be averted... but then again, could very well be that by getting out the 'weak ones' then all the strong ones would have to go head to head with other strong ones... simple name-calling and a shove wouldn't be enough, you'd have to escalate to prove you're better ... so that could totally backfire.

--Again, if every single mentally ill person were executed, we would see EXACTLY the same as in Post-Hitler Europe. This is biology - you can do whatever you want, it is not going to vary. You can't change a natural law.

--Human beings are by nature and by the behavior of large group dynamics(not individuals), 'difference finders' and 'pack animals' and they act largely like packs of predators. If you remove every single defective individual, the pack will start to attack other differences or finer differences. Humans also act something like herds - and if individuals are examined, there are always 'comforters'(nurturers) and 'eliminators' and 'peace keepers' and 'peacemakers' in human groups as well as herds.

--In other words, if there is absolutely no significant difference between people, they will start attacking smaller and smaller differences in each other. In the prep school where all the kids are rich and have expensive clothing, the kids will start picking on smaller and less significant aspects of each other's clothing, or the kid whose father makes 2 million will be picked on by the kids whose fathers make 200 milion.

--There will always be someone, in other words, who is 'different' and will get picked on. This is part of human pack behavior. USUALLY...usually there are other behaviors and individuals which keep this in check. But it is always there.

SOOO many possibles, that could never be totally predicted... not telling what a nightmare it could cause... and not even counting humans knack for bucking the system at every chance.... oh yeah chaotic as it is I still think our willy nilly breeding is the best thing for us. The simple fact that the vast majority of people are don't harm their own kind, not cannibals, obey the law, etc etc... that says a LOT I think.

Ohhh just thought of something... why do we call it a gene pool?

--That term has a specific meaning, much like the 'universe' in set theory.

Pools have filters and chemicals and whatnot... seems like gene pond would be a bit more accurate... or maybe ocean... yeah, prolly better given the insane amount of diversity without our species. Ah, yet another random thought. *shrug*

-- By many standards our species is frighteningly NON diverse and that is of great concern to our long term survival.

--Most of the differences between human beings are extremely trivial and most of the reasons people do not get along, or the differences they focus on, are similarly trivial.

--Differences between people become problems, NOT because of the differences themselves, but because of how they are treated and viewed and dealt with - or more accurately, ignored, misinterpreted and mis-treated. If mentally ill people were cared for properly, they would not be a 'problem'. Likewise with violent people. If they were treated and dealt with effectively, they would also not be a problem.

--There is no reason why a schizophrenic man has to be wandering around in the street of a big city shouting at traffic or yelling at people on the sidewalk. It is merely our choices that put him there. There is nothing specific to the disease that means the person has to be like that. He can also be productive, working, happy, clean, and a valuable part of the community. It is what we vote on and what we allow to happen through our ignorance and inaction, that makes the situation what it is.

 

[redhen]

I agree.. it breaks my heart to see those people on the streets...
And then you see some punks making fun of them... grrrr.. ooh it pizzes me off..
We DO need more resources for the mentally ill..(i've been saying that for a long time now..) . we really do. They just keep getting turned out onto the street or put into jail... it solves nothing and dosent help the problem at all...

 

[welsummerchicks]

A friend of mine's husband was a prison guard. He told me 'the country's jails are the largest de facto mental hospital in the world'. He pointed me to a study that found that 45% of jail inmates are taking psychiatric medications.

When I went to court with a patient, another sick person came in that had been arrested 88 times in the last few months. Eighty eight times.