On the late news last night, some guy goes driving around in Gainesville, Florida randomly shooting people on the street...about 10 people are dead, then he shoots and kills himself. Total madness!
This place has gone mad!
- Thread starter dawg53
- Start date
I saw that on the news also. We will probley never know why that happened.
- Aug 12, 2009
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Sad thing imo is it has always been like this.It is just a matter of whether or not the madness will touch you in some way.
The more people there are in the world the more madness there will be.
You might want to revise your post, as your facts are all wrong. Seven people were shot, 2 were killed, the shooter, who killed himself, and his father. The police believe each person was specifically targeted.
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i live in Oklahoma and they are looking for a guy that shot this other guy more than once but did not die YET!!!
- Thread starter
- #7
Quote:
Sorry Halo, I didnt watch the news this morning...that's what the great news reporters from Jacksonville stated last night before I turned the TV off and went to bed. Misinformation as usual. Thanks for the update!
Sorry Halo, I didnt watch the news this morning...that's what the great news reporters from Jacksonville stated last night before I turned the TV off and went to bed. Misinformation as usual. Thanks for the update!
My apologies to OP, Posters and/or Modly Ones for any offense caused by me posting my opinion.
Didn't mean to cause offense and thus I've deleted the post myself. That said I'll replace my previous post with...
Shame to see yet another story about people hurting people.
Didn't mean to cause offense and thus I've deleted the post myself. That said I'll replace my previous post with...
Shame to see yet another story about people hurting people.
Last edited:
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
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I don't agree with the above point of view, from either a scientific or a cultural/social point of view, for a number of different reasons. That's the summary, that and, most importantly, there is no evidence yet that the shooter DID have any mental illness at all. Nothing was stated about it.
I have to admit as someone who has been working with very sick people for many years, I do, yes, find the previous post revolting and it made me incredibly angry and roused my passion more than anything else I have read here. So I waited to respond until I was cooled off, and this is all written with a very, very cool and calm hand. I can say, that the single word I found the most revolting in PM's post, aside from the blatant eugenics, is the word 'coddled'. I don't know any mentally ill people, either wealthy and under appropriate medical care, nor homeless and not under appropriate medical care, who is 'coddled', and I have been around them for forty years.
Our mental health care system is broken. Terribly broken. It is more broken now than it ever has been. But it is NOT broken because the mentally ill are 'coddled'. I feel I have enough experience dealing with the violent mentally ill to comment on this subject. And I have many a time, called a doctor or other authorities when I felt a condition was progressing toward an ineveitable event. Invariably, these calls are ignored. There is virtually no 'prevention' built into our broken system, there is only reacting after the fact.
The reasons are much more complex than most discussions allow for, but the architect of the state committment laws states clearly they were drawn up under one guideline and one alone: to save money. 'At all costs', to save money. The result is the 'expensive child of a frugal era'. Emergency shelters, the courts, mopping up the aftermath, whether it is the total deterioration and incapacitation of the mentally ill person or a criminal tragedy (or both), costs hundreds or even thousands of times more than what prevention would. We could house, medicate, feed, counsel and support every severely mentally ill person in the US for their entire lives, for a fraction of what it costs us to do now. We react, we do not act.
The simple fact of our system is that we put the full responsibility for deciding to get, seeking out, maintaining and paying for psychiatric treatment on the people most unable and unlikely to do so, the most severely ill. They are most unlikely and unable to get and maintain help, simply because of the nature of their diseases and how it affects their behavior and decision making process.
No, we do not know if the killer had a mental illness or not, and I would not assume, in the absence of facts, that he was mentally ill.
People have also committed multiple murders on rampages when on drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people go on shooting rampages because they are simply ANGRY - and they have no mental illness at all. They may be angry over a divorce or who got the money in the will that was just read. Completely normal people have killed their own children when they did not like the divorce terms.
We like to think only SICK CRAZY people commit extreme acts, that is a myth and it simply is not true.
A little bit of amphetamine, crack or ecstacy, or the wrong circumstances, and almost anyone can at least in theory, go completely berzerk and do things they would never do otherwise. Many people have a very extreme stance as to their 'rights' or their beliefs. These things can lead to terrible violence.
There is no mental illness called 'violent murderer'. Murder and violent crimes, even multiple shootings, are actually complex, and do not always involve a mental illness. Nor does a person necessarily become violent because they have a severe mental illness. Violent crime is a part of a relatively small (but highly visible) number of mentally ill people's behaviors. If the disease attacks part of the brain that control behavior and decisions and impulses, they may at some point be one of the unlucky mentally ill people who become violent.
Violent crimes are often committed by people who had nothing more severe than mild depression, and often, not even a depression a doctor ever noticed. Granted, health care in that area is poor these days, but in any case, violent crimes do not always equal 'mentally ill' or even 'severely mentally ill'.
I am not talking about the feeling some have, that 'anyone who does such a thing is nuts', I'm talking about people who are diagnosed with a specific medical condition in the the category of 'mental illness' - bipolar, schizophrenia, severe depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc, AND where the mental illness is actually truly a factor in the crime.
For example, a mildly schizophrenic person might commit a murder in the course of a robbery of a jewelry store, but his illness may not actually be a significant factor in that crime, he may have done it to get money. His reasons for robbing the store might not be entirely logical, his reasons for going along with that group of robbers may not be completely rational, but the illness probably isn't a significant enough factor for it to be the kind of crime I'm talking about right now.
On the other hand, if a schizophrenic were to shoot the repairman who comes into his apartment unannounced because 'he was the devil', then the illness might be a factor in the crime. This is what I'm talking about in this post.
In fact, it is more characteristic of the most severe mental illnesses, that a person can't even plan or organize enough to commit a violent act. I've seen very ill people wander away and not even be able to concentrate long enough to do anything concerted or planned, even the simplest plan.
What about 'heredity'?
Hitler had most of the mentally ill people in Germany put into concentration camps and eventually killed. The next generation there were just about as many mentally ill people in those countries. These diseases are NOT 'inherited' like we think of blue eyes or brown hair being inherited. The 'heritability' of mental illness is so low that many alternate theories about 'contributing factors' have been spawned off, most pointing a finger at how parents treat kids. The truth is only now becoming obvious.
Overall fertility among the mentally ill has indeed gone up in the last 75 years. Mentally ill people who are successfully treated are more successful in finding a partner and in having and caring for children.
I chuckle at the idea that 'being locked up' kept mentally ill women from bearing children - they were often raped daily in those old state 'warehouses', by the guards, quite often, and pregnancy was a huge problem in that system. Fertility has gone up largely because in some very minor ways, care has improved. Medications are less incapacitating, and due to the magic of statistics, only a few people need to be healthier and more able to cope in society for 'fertility to rise'.
But the fact of the matter is that back 60-70 years ago, by my calculations, the number of institutional beds in the US available for the mentally ill did not cover even a tenth of the severely ill people in the institution's cachement area (the area the hospital served). Sure there were beds in any cachement area, but my calculations indicate most of the beds actually were reserved for drug addicted and alcoholic patients, not the mentally ill.
People back then were very often forced to divorce and liquidate all their assets to get the state to cover psychiatric care, and the problems were very, very little different from what they are today. Back then, as now, most mentally ill people were NOT entirely incapacitated. And so, unless they were very wealthy and had a private hospital, they were kept in a warehouse with very little care for a MONTH and tossed out on the street. Today, people are either not brought in at all or are kept for 72 HOURS, and then they leave. In the end, the difference is very, very slight. The majority of severely ill people have never gotten the kind of care they really need in the US. Only a few very ill people with specific symptoms are likely to check in and ask for help, AND follow through and maintain that help over the time frame necessary.
'Raised with your example'. That is an ignorant statement. In fact, the children of mentally ill people get mental illness at the exact same rate whether they are adopted out and raised by normal parents OR NOT.
And in fact, the rate of mental illness in a mentally ill parent's children is so LOW it has confused researchers for hundreds of years.
"Sis"
Many people have a lot of anger about a sibling who acted badly. Some siblings who act badly are mentally ill, some are not, and in quite a few, the problems actually have little to do with mental illness, or are complex, and include addiction and many other issues.
The resentment and anger one feels when remembering an out of control relative, especially when those feelings are magnified by the helplessness of childhood, does little to resolve the problems of society as a whole, in regards to the mentally ill or the mentally ill offender. They also have to TRY to remember that their relative is NOT typical of 'all mentally ill', and what she and her parents did to cope with a sick relative, are not necessarily going to work as social policy.
Quote the many studies that show that mental illness is on the rise in general. You may find them on some web site with an agenda, or on one created by the Aryan Nation, but they will not be juried, reviewed studies.
It IS possible that with the incredibly broken mental health system we may have more people who are going untreated and getting into trouble, but I have seen NOTHING legitimate that suggests the incidence of severe mental illness is on the rise. I think the events are being REPORTED more and more, that I do think is true.
In fact, humans do 'cull weak stock'. Severely mentally ill people regularly lose their homes and suffer a high mortality rate on the street. The severely mentally ill are more likely to die of untreated heart disease, high blood pressure, infection and contagious disease. They are very very regularly 'culled' thank you very much. I've been to enough funerals to know that.
Re welfare stat vs natural selection of the weak. Aryan eugenics, pure and simple. In fact, the average welfare recipient is 28, male, married, white, and has 2 chidren, and is usually gainfully employed.
Re 'bad genes'. There IS no 'bad gene' that has ever been identified, and never will be, any single gene that 'passes on mental illness' or 'violent mental illness'. There you are just wrong.
Re societal influences - games and movies a cause of violent mental illness. Prove it. You won't be able to. These diseases start in the brain long before birth.
Re seeing more of this. Prove it.
Re his children having this behavior: will you be the one to execute them without them ever having shown any evidence of antisocial behavior or being diagnosed with a disease? There are laws in our country and the 'sins of the father' and 'they're all bad' are not laws in the United States of America. Nor are our laws based on Aryan eugenics.
I have to admit as someone who has been working with very sick people for many years, I do, yes, find the previous post revolting and it made me incredibly angry and roused my passion more than anything else I have read here. So I waited to respond until I was cooled off, and this is all written with a very, very cool and calm hand. I can say, that the single word I found the most revolting in PM's post, aside from the blatant eugenics, is the word 'coddled'. I don't know any mentally ill people, either wealthy and under appropriate medical care, nor homeless and not under appropriate medical care, who is 'coddled', and I have been around them for forty years.
Our mental health care system is broken. Terribly broken. It is more broken now than it ever has been. But it is NOT broken because the mentally ill are 'coddled'. I feel I have enough experience dealing with the violent mentally ill to comment on this subject. And I have many a time, called a doctor or other authorities when I felt a condition was progressing toward an ineveitable event. Invariably, these calls are ignored. There is virtually no 'prevention' built into our broken system, there is only reacting after the fact.
The reasons are much more complex than most discussions allow for, but the architect of the state committment laws states clearly they were drawn up under one guideline and one alone: to save money. 'At all costs', to save money. The result is the 'expensive child of a frugal era'. Emergency shelters, the courts, mopping up the aftermath, whether it is the total deterioration and incapacitation of the mentally ill person or a criminal tragedy (or both), costs hundreds or even thousands of times more than what prevention would. We could house, medicate, feed, counsel and support every severely mentally ill person in the US for their entire lives, for a fraction of what it costs us to do now. We react, we do not act.
The simple fact of our system is that we put the full responsibility for deciding to get, seeking out, maintaining and paying for psychiatric treatment on the people most unable and unlikely to do so, the most severely ill. They are most unlikely and unable to get and maintain help, simply because of the nature of their diseases and how it affects their behavior and decision making process.
No, we do not know if the killer had a mental illness or not, and I would not assume, in the absence of facts, that he was mentally ill.
People have also committed multiple murders on rampages when on drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people go on shooting rampages because they are simply ANGRY - and they have no mental illness at all. They may be angry over a divorce or who got the money in the will that was just read. Completely normal people have killed their own children when they did not like the divorce terms.
We like to think only SICK CRAZY people commit extreme acts, that is a myth and it simply is not true.
A little bit of amphetamine, crack or ecstacy, or the wrong circumstances, and almost anyone can at least in theory, go completely berzerk and do things they would never do otherwise. Many people have a very extreme stance as to their 'rights' or their beliefs. These things can lead to terrible violence.
There is no mental illness called 'violent murderer'. Murder and violent crimes, even multiple shootings, are actually complex, and do not always involve a mental illness. Nor does a person necessarily become violent because they have a severe mental illness. Violent crime is a part of a relatively small (but highly visible) number of mentally ill people's behaviors. If the disease attacks part of the brain that control behavior and decisions and impulses, they may at some point be one of the unlucky mentally ill people who become violent.
Violent crimes are often committed by people who had nothing more severe than mild depression, and often, not even a depression a doctor ever noticed. Granted, health care in that area is poor these days, but in any case, violent crimes do not always equal 'mentally ill' or even 'severely mentally ill'.
I am not talking about the feeling some have, that 'anyone who does such a thing is nuts', I'm talking about people who are diagnosed with a specific medical condition in the the category of 'mental illness' - bipolar, schizophrenia, severe depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc, AND where the mental illness is actually truly a factor in the crime.
For example, a mildly schizophrenic person might commit a murder in the course of a robbery of a jewelry store, but his illness may not actually be a significant factor in that crime, he may have done it to get money. His reasons for robbing the store might not be entirely logical, his reasons for going along with that group of robbers may not be completely rational, but the illness probably isn't a significant enough factor for it to be the kind of crime I'm talking about right now.
On the other hand, if a schizophrenic were to shoot the repairman who comes into his apartment unannounced because 'he was the devil', then the illness might be a factor in the crime. This is what I'm talking about in this post.
In fact, it is more characteristic of the most severe mental illnesses, that a person can't even plan or organize enough to commit a violent act. I've seen very ill people wander away and not even be able to concentrate long enough to do anything concerted or planned, even the simplest plan.
What about 'heredity'?
Hitler had most of the mentally ill people in Germany put into concentration camps and eventually killed. The next generation there were just about as many mentally ill people in those countries. These diseases are NOT 'inherited' like we think of blue eyes or brown hair being inherited. The 'heritability' of mental illness is so low that many alternate theories about 'contributing factors' have been spawned off, most pointing a finger at how parents treat kids. The truth is only now becoming obvious.
Overall fertility among the mentally ill has indeed gone up in the last 75 years. Mentally ill people who are successfully treated are more successful in finding a partner and in having and caring for children.
I chuckle at the idea that 'being locked up' kept mentally ill women from bearing children - they were often raped daily in those old state 'warehouses', by the guards, quite often, and pregnancy was a huge problem in that system. Fertility has gone up largely because in some very minor ways, care has improved. Medications are less incapacitating, and due to the magic of statistics, only a few people need to be healthier and more able to cope in society for 'fertility to rise'.
But the fact of the matter is that back 60-70 years ago, by my calculations, the number of institutional beds in the US available for the mentally ill did not cover even a tenth of the severely ill people in the institution's cachement area (the area the hospital served). Sure there were beds in any cachement area, but my calculations indicate most of the beds actually were reserved for drug addicted and alcoholic patients, not the mentally ill.
People back then were very often forced to divorce and liquidate all their assets to get the state to cover psychiatric care, and the problems were very, very little different from what they are today. Back then, as now, most mentally ill people were NOT entirely incapacitated. And so, unless they were very wealthy and had a private hospital, they were kept in a warehouse with very little care for a MONTH and tossed out on the street. Today, people are either not brought in at all or are kept for 72 HOURS, and then they leave. In the end, the difference is very, very slight. The majority of severely ill people have never gotten the kind of care they really need in the US. Only a few very ill people with specific symptoms are likely to check in and ask for help, AND follow through and maintain that help over the time frame necessary.
'Raised with your example'. That is an ignorant statement. In fact, the children of mentally ill people get mental illness at the exact same rate whether they are adopted out and raised by normal parents OR NOT.
And in fact, the rate of mental illness in a mentally ill parent's children is so LOW it has confused researchers for hundreds of years.
"Sis"
Many people have a lot of anger about a sibling who acted badly. Some siblings who act badly are mentally ill, some are not, and in quite a few, the problems actually have little to do with mental illness, or are complex, and include addiction and many other issues.
The resentment and anger one feels when remembering an out of control relative, especially when those feelings are magnified by the helplessness of childhood, does little to resolve the problems of society as a whole, in regards to the mentally ill or the mentally ill offender. They also have to TRY to remember that their relative is NOT typical of 'all mentally ill', and what she and her parents did to cope with a sick relative, are not necessarily going to work as social policy.
Quote the many studies that show that mental illness is on the rise in general. You may find them on some web site with an agenda, or on one created by the Aryan Nation, but they will not be juried, reviewed studies.
It IS possible that with the incredibly broken mental health system we may have more people who are going untreated and getting into trouble, but I have seen NOTHING legitimate that suggests the incidence of severe mental illness is on the rise. I think the events are being REPORTED more and more, that I do think is true.
In fact, humans do 'cull weak stock'. Severely mentally ill people regularly lose their homes and suffer a high mortality rate on the street. The severely mentally ill are more likely to die of untreated heart disease, high blood pressure, infection and contagious disease. They are very very regularly 'culled' thank you very much. I've been to enough funerals to know that.
Re welfare stat vs natural selection of the weak. Aryan eugenics, pure and simple. In fact, the average welfare recipient is 28, male, married, white, and has 2 chidren, and is usually gainfully employed.
Re 'bad genes'. There IS no 'bad gene' that has ever been identified, and never will be, any single gene that 'passes on mental illness' or 'violent mental illness'. There you are just wrong.
Re societal influences - games and movies a cause of violent mental illness. Prove it. You won't be able to. These diseases start in the brain long before birth.
Re seeing more of this. Prove it.
Re his children having this behavior: will you be the one to execute them without them ever having shown any evidence of antisocial behavior or being diagnosed with a disease? There are laws in our country and the 'sins of the father' and 'they're all bad' are not laws in the United States of America. Nor are our laws based on Aryan eugenics.
I think that PM may be confusing sociopaths with an actual mental illness... maybe?
Sociopaths do not legally have a mental illness.(well i guess techinally it IS.. BUT..).. they are legally responsible for their actions (just like you and me..)... because they DO know what they are doing... they just dont care... some vital part of their conscience is truly missing... they have no empathy for their victims.... etc...
Folks still dont know exactly what makes a sociopath... some say it happens in very early childhood... when the baby needs that important bonding...and dosent recieve it...
Who knows...
where as ... say a scizophrenics are sometimes really not in control of their minds... they literally cant help the things they do...or the voices in their head that tells them to kill mom because shes an alien...
they cant help it... its real to them...
Again... there is a difference between sociopaths and someone with a REAL mental illness that they cant control...
All i know is ..i fear the sociopaths MUCH more than the truly mentally ill folks..because they are not evil..like sociopaths are.
Pineapplemomma.. i'd say your Sis is a sociopath.... shes not mentally ill...
She can control what shes doing....
Look up the definition of a sociopath... sadly, i bet your Sis fits the bill..
http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
Sociopaths do not legally have a mental illness.(well i guess techinally it IS.. BUT..).. they are legally responsible for their actions (just like you and me..)... because they DO know what they are doing... they just dont care... some vital part of their conscience is truly missing... they have no empathy for their victims.... etc...
Folks still dont know exactly what makes a sociopath... some say it happens in very early childhood... when the baby needs that important bonding...and dosent recieve it...
Who knows...
where as ... say a scizophrenics are sometimes really not in control of their minds... they literally cant help the things they do...or the voices in their head that tells them to kill mom because shes an alien...
they cant help it... its real to them...
Again... there is a difference between sociopaths and someone with a REAL mental illness that they cant control...
All i know is ..i fear the sociopaths MUCH more than the truly mentally ill folks..because they are not evil..like sociopaths are.
Pineapplemomma.. i'd say your Sis is a sociopath.... shes not mentally ill...
She can control what shes doing....
Look up the definition of a sociopath... sadly, i bet your Sis fits the bill..
http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
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