To get a dog or not to get a dog....

[GuppyTJ]

We dont have as many chickens as some (14 roam on 2 acres) but they dont really seem to alarm call very much. Its mostly our dog pack that does the monitoring, and as some have mentioned, they guard the space (dont allow intruders and like to hunt vermin- vermin that eat chickens coincendatally) not the chickens- my thoughts on various herding breeds is, unless that is your breed, its not necessary to have that much energy and drive and herding talent for chicken guarding. All you need is a dog with an instinct to sound the alarm and watch over your Homestead (2 or 20 acres) and run off predators.
Have a very high energy, demanding giant schnauzer, and a fairly low energy Bernese mt dog and Pyr- Anatolian puppy that all perform quite well in this regard.

Hey thanks, this is really helpful. I think... you might be right! Maybe I don't really need a full blown livestock guardian dog and I'm making a bigger deal out of this than I need to. So, can I ask a few questions? I'm trying to sort this out in my mind and I'm starting to converge on a decision so your answers/insights may help me get solid on an approach.

First, question. Do you notice any difference in how WELL your Pyr/Analtolian does vs. the other breeds of dogs? I realize he's a puppy still. I ask because as I get my next dog, I just wonder if narrowing to a classic guardian dog breed (pyranees or anatolian) is really that beneficial.

Second question. Where are your dogs during the day and night? In other words, do your dogs stay at your barn/coop all day? Do they essentially live outside or inside? Do they come in the house at night? I ask because barn/coop is about a 1/4 mile from my house and during the day is my risk time. For example, right now as I write this, it's 1 p.m. in the afternoon and the dogs are outside my house but that's 1/4 mile from where the chickens are. For all I know, at this very second, the chickens are getting eaten by coyotes or a hungry fox!

Guppy

 

[centrarchid]

Interesting point and subtle too. I would say my dogs do NOT pay attention to chicken alarms but I need to pay more attention to verify. Like I said, very subtle. What I believe is happening (again, need to verify) is that my dogs smell the predators long before the chickens have a clue that the predator is around so the chickens have never sounded a real alarm. The rooster does sound the alarm pretty frequently but it's never for anything real. Usually, he's alerting for a potential predator, like a crow or in fact, one of my dogs! He's just doing his job and well, albeit cautiously. But to my knowledge, no predator has ever gotten past the dog's noses or ears to cause the chickens to have reason to alert.

And as always... I caveat all of this in my mind with "up to this point." Up to this point, whatever my dogs and I am doing, has worked to keep the predators away. I hear coyotes nearly every night very close to or on my land, even up near the barn, yip, yip, yipping. My dogs (especially the sighted beagle mutt) clear the area in the morning for me. She really does a good job, barking and running off anything in the area. She'll do this again probably 1-2 more times during the day and every evening. It's the gaps between these times that worry me. And her running up in the woods on a barking jag by herself. She's a good dog too, coming when she's called. After even I get tired of her barking, I'll call her back and she's pretty good about coming.

But... all this said, Cenrachid, have you ever seen one of those livestock guardian dog videos? It's so different to watch those dogs in action vs. my own dogs. Those dogs station themselves between the predator and the livestock. Those dogs glance back at the livestock to make sure they're safe. They have it very clear in their minds that they are protecting that flock or herd. If a predator does try to get one of the livestock, the dog pushes the predator back while trying to fight it. It's not as much (or at all?) about protecting territory or location. It's just fundamentally different. Which is why it was such an "aha" moment for me personally.

I'm still not sure what I need/want in my next dog. And I'm grappling with it. The downside to a true LGD is that they are bonded with the animals, less so with you. They are not pets so much as they are working dogs. Today, our dogs go hiking with us, live in our house, are pretty much part of our family. A LGD is part of the family of the livestock. And, if your LGD stays with the flock/herd at night, they bark ALL night so you have to decide if you can put up with that.

Certainly, I bet there are degrees and a spectrum of ranges between a full fledged LGD and a pet dog that runs off predators. I don't know though, how you get a dog to bond with livestock so much so that he WANTS to stay with them and is happiest when with his flock/herd and still want to be with the humans and other dogs in the family. It seems like it's probably more of an either or situation. Either the dog wants to be with the chickens because that's his pack or he wants to be with the family because that's his pack. I don't know if there is a place in the middle that still achieves the objectives of a dog that stays with and actively defends the livestock.

Anyway.... just thinking outloud. I joined the LGD Facebook group so I can try to ask these questions there.

Guppy

For my dogs the transition from simply targeting predator based on dog detecting them directly to using chickens as part of the detection was gradual over the course of a summer for older dog although second dog caught over at most a week or so. I have seen videos and some actual LGD activity first hand with multiple dogs. With the standard LGD's, some at least seem to be considerate of sheep / goat herd's location and position themselves between herd and threat. Herds and LGD's I have watched at work operate in relatively small paddocks (5 to at most 20 acres each). Activities are very much artificial relative how they likely behave in a free-range setting like the LGD's were developed for. When chicken flocks are not mobile with respect to sphere of threats dogs must contend with, then positioning of dog between chickens and threat is not all that important, especially when flock does not bunch up or move like a domestic ruminant herd. In my setting flocks are dispersed over multiple acres were seldom do dogs have line-of-sight on predator or even flock and wind is not always appropriate for detection. Look at images in my albums to get feel for how things look. Fifty birds can move about as a group with few if any being visible owing to plant cover.

Defending a flock of chickens is a very different game than defending a herd of ruminants which should be your next game changer experienced. Through modification of management of flock, landscape and dogs you can optimize so dogs not bred for task can get job done.


Almost certainly there was an intermediate stage where full fledged LGD's where not full fledged although that may time may have come and gone thousands of years ago. A cross of some sort may exhibit the intermediate condition and for some situations that may prove closer to optimum with the backyard livestock keepers.


I participated on one of the LGD Facebooks for a while but saw few if any of the dog owners used them as they were bred and much of the chatter seemed more a function of peddling efforts. I came away disgusted by the over the top talk about dogs that protected very small flocks worth less than dogs cost. A better source would be parties producing larger numbers of sheep and goats in areas where herds range out of sight in much larger areas than I have seen. Those folks I think will have a better handle on how the dogs operate.

 

[CAjerseychick]

Centrarchid
makes good points-- in our case we just really like dogs, and when we went to get a new pup, thought, well why not try one of those surplus Pyr/anatolian pups that are always available-- so we went out and got little Oscar, took him to puppy class and he is settling in fine with our other two and at 16 weeks is just starting to run with the big dogs and bark at night (we already have night barkers so that was not a concern for us). They bark alot and it is cause there are a lot of things out there (my neighbor has been having nightly bear visits-- we dont)....
I think you should get the dog you want as a pet, and it should guard as part of its territorial aspects (you, know pick a breed that will remotely have some territorial instincts to it....

 

[GuppyTJ]

For my dogs the transition from simply targeting predator based on dog detecting them directly to using chickens as part of the detection was gradual over the course of a summer for older dog although second dog caught over at most a week or so. I have seen videos and some actual LGD activity first hand with multiple dogs. With the standard LGD's, some at least seem to be considerate of sheep / goat herd's location and position themselves between herd and threat. Herds and LGD's I have watched at work operate in relatively small paddocks (5 to at most 20 acres each). Activities are very much artificial relative how they likely behave in a free-range setting like the LGD's were developed for. When chicken flocks are not mobile with respect to sphere of threats dogs must contend with, then positioning of dog between chickens and threat is not all that important, especially when flock does not bunch up or move like a domestic ruminant herd. In my setting flocks are dispersed over multiple acres were seldom do dogs have line-of-sight on predator or even flock and wind is not always appropriate for detection. Look at images in my albums to get feel for how things look. Fifty birds can move about as a group with few if any being visible owing to plant cover.

Defending a flock of chickens is a very different game than defending a herd of ruminants which should be your next game changer experienced. Through modification of management of flock, landscape and dogs you can optimize so dogs not bred for task can get job done.


Almost certainly there was an intermediate stage where full fledged LGD's where not full fledged although that may time may have come and gone thousands of years ago. A cross of some sort may exhibit the intermediate condition and for some situations that may prove closer to optimum with the backyard livestock keepers.


I participated on one of the LGD Facebooks for a while but saw few if any of the dog owners used them as they were bred and much of the chatter seemed more a function of peddling efforts. I came away disgusted by the over the top talk about dogs that protected very small flocks worth less than dogs cost. A better source would be parties producing larger numbers of sheep and goats in areas where herds range out of sight in much larger areas than I have seen. Those folks I think will have a better handle on how the dogs operate.

Yup, great points as always. Love corresponding with you, always learn a thing or two.

You're right about flocks of birds vs. flocks of say, goats. I worked in Namibia volunteering for the Cheetah Conservation Fund a few years back. www.cheetah.org GREAT organization, trains LGDs and then gives them away to farmers in an effort to minimize livestock losses attributed to many wild animals, including cheetahs. This helps the farmers and minimizes cheetah losses. I worked with their Anatolians some, saw how they bonded the dogs as pups to goats. I got bit by the mean old stud Anatolian dog and got a nasty infection, they tried to put an IV in my arm at the local "hospital" to administer antibiotics but with 25% of the population being HIV positive, I was having none of that.... but that's a whole different story. While there, I never really saw the dogs in a live predator guarding situation, however.

Still thinking about the difference between having a good territorial dog and a guardian dog. The more I listen to you and others, I'm leaning towards the regular territorial dog that may modify, as you say, over time. A guardian dog does seems like a lot of "dog" for what is now 8 chickens and soon to be 3 goats. BUT.... I haven't been through a winter yet with these chickens, when predator calorie needs go up so they can stay warm and predators may be more willing to to risk come down off the mountain despite the occasional barking from my dog pack. If I do get a LGD, it will come from one of the shelters as there are a bunch in them that are at least mixes of LGD breeds. So, I won't pay much for mine and I'm not getting one from a breeder. I'm a shelter dog girl, through and through. Will never get a dog that was purposely bred, just too many wonderful, trainable dogs in the shelters that need homes and will be killed otherwise.

With respect to the FB LGD forum... I see that you are right about it being mostly backyard hobby farmer types like me. But, that's what I am so it's probably what I need. What I don't like about the forum is how militant the Admins are! They just take this stuff too seriously, kicking people out who don't post enough, stuff like that, not letting you be a member if you don't post an intro about yourself within 24 hours of being added to the group. Sheesh, it's FB after all! They should run it like the moderators of BYC do, just making sure people are appropriate and not mean or disrespectful to each other.

Anyway, much appreciated, Centrachid.

Guppy

 

[GuppyTJ]

Centrarchid
makes good points-- in our case we just really like dogs, and when we went to get a new pup, thought, well why not try one of those surplus Pyr/anatolian pups that are always available-- so we went out and got little Oscar, took him to puppy class and he is settling in fine with our other two and at 16 weeks is just starting to run with the big dogs and bark at night (we already have night barkers so that was not a concern for us). They bark alot and it is cause there are a lot of things out there (my neighbor has been having nightly bear visits-- we dont)....
I think you should get the dog you want as a pet, and it should guard as part of its territorial aspects (you, know pick a breed that will remotely have some territorial instincts to it....

Very good, thanks for the insights into your situation and your direct advice! I think I just might do as you suggest.... As I write this, my beagle mutt is outside barking at something! I just yelled "Go get em' Darby" and off she ran! If she had a little help, I think it would probably be enough.

Guppy

 

[GuppyTJ]

Just FYI, I did get a dog yesterday from the kill shelter. He's an Anatolian mix, male, about a year old. I think he's going to work out GREAT. Today is his first full day with us so still a long way to go with ALL his training (like.... learning his name for starters!). But, already I can tell that his natural interest in the chickens is minimal from a prey instinct type perspective. He is more curious and puppy-like towards them vs. predator like. It will take time for him to be exposed to them and get to know them as part of our family. I mean, he still has to learn himself that he is part of our family and learns his manners (his name, come, not to jump up, not to roam too far, to find his place in the pack order with our 2 existing dogs, etc). But I am very hopeful and see good promise that he will be a good dog in general and a good guard dog too. He already shows good guard dog characteristics such as barking at noises, paying attention to sounds in the woods. Again, it's day one so loads to teach him and lots for him to learn but good signs so far.

And, my rooster is doing GREAT too, stationing himself between this new dog and the flock, giving the dog a little mini warning type charge, circling the dog to show the dog the rooster means business, etc. Glad to see this too, always wondered what he'd be like in a real predator situation. Interesting to me too, that the whole flock immediately could tell the difference between my 2 existing dogs they grew up with and this new strange and unknown dog.

Fun to see this whole thing evolve. I always learn something new whenever the dynamics change in this adventure of life!

Guppy