To worm or not to worm that is the question.

[jak2002003]

Never de wormed my birds... and many of my chickens are approaching 8 years old and still plump, healthy and laying eggs.

 

[Fancychooklady]

The ' natural ' verses ' drugs ' debate goes on, just as the 'to vaccinate or not ' goes on around the world. Responsible animal husbandry and poultry keeping requires responsible choices. Parasites are a fact of life and personal hygiene , whilst important , is not enough to prevent a heavy burden . Fact is , chickens are ground feeders and they ingest the parasite larvae whilst going about their everyday business. We run a small farm and have seen several species suffer as a result of worms, so we have a rotational worming system in place. Worms are a real and present danger , how you deal with them is a personal choice.
The question that you have posed will attract responses from both sides , but eventually you will need to choose which path to take. Good luck on you chicken adventure.

 

[shortgrass]

Don't mean to open another can of worms here...(pun intended!

) but for those of you who don't worm. Do you medicate at all? Like what about if one of your chickens gets coccidiosis? I just bought Sulmet today because of my chickens "may" be showing signs of this and I just want to have it on hand because this seems to be one of the most prevalent chicken ailments even under the best care and conditions.

Just to answer you quickly, I breed for resistance and have a closed flock, so if they aren't actually resistant to cocci, which is everywhere, then they get culled.



I have to add, for anything "natural" to work, ie pumpkin, cayenne, garlic, etc, the WHOLE ENVIRONMENT has to be healthy. Really can't expect to be able to get away with not worming when the area the chickens are in is seriously infested and then not do anything to help the soil microbes or the chickens' immune system; its going to be a long process of cycling through wormers until the whole picture is cleaned up and done differently, because obviously what been done isn't working.

 

[Mrs. K]

@ Birdbeliever
"Don't mean to open another can of worms here...(pun intended! ) but for those of you who don't worm. Do you medicate at all? Like what about if one of your chickens gets coccidiosis? I just bought Sulmet today because of my chickens "may" be showing signs of this and I just want to have it on hand because this seems to be one of the most prevalent chicken ailments even under the best care and conditions."

Anything that is sick is culled as soon as possible and disposed. I don't medicate any of my birds or separate them from the flock. I keep a healthy flock. I don't have pets, I practice animal husbandry in which the whole flock is more important than one bird. Sickly, unthrifty birds are very prone to parasites, I don't want them as a reservoir of disease in my flock.

I do know that many do medicate, often by guess and by golly, and that can be dangerous to the health of the flock. It is up to each's individual choice. However, often times, with the best of intentions, the flock is put at risk.

Mrs K

 

[Beekissed]

Don't mean to open another can of worms here...(pun intended!

) but for those of you who don't worm. Do you medicate at all? Like what about if one of your chickens gets coccidiosis? I just bought Sulmet today because of my chickens "may" be showing signs of this and I just want to have it on hand because this seems to be one of the most prevalent chicken ailments even under the best care and conditions.

Nope...no meds at all. Coccidiosis is easy to prevent as well. I've had two incidents with bringing outside birds into the flock and both groups arrived with Coccidiosis...they were given time to show improvement on different feed and management and, when they did not, they were culled...they were not in quarantine during that time period. Birds that carry illness are obviously weak and are prone to contracting illness or parasites, so they have no real purpose in my flock. Giving them medicines won't change that.

None of my birds contracted the illness, nor have any birds I've raised personally ever had coccidiosis.

Coccidiosis is as easy to prevent as worm infestations, so no need to prepare for "just in case" here. It's not luck that I never have that in my flocks, it's due to management methods that are calculated to prevent it ever becoming a problem.

I've seen what other people describe as "the best care and conditions" and I'd not trust those descriptions too awful much. Mostly I'm just appalled at what most people think are good care and conditions.

 

[Beekissed]

Just to answer you quickly, I breed for resistance and have a closed flock, so if they aren't actually resistant to cocci, which is everywhere, then they get culled.



I have to add, for anything "natural" to work, ie pumpkin, cayenne, garlic, etc, the WHOLE ENVIRONMENT has to be healthy. Really can't expect to be able to get away with not worming when the area the chickens are in is seriously infested and then not do anything to help the soil microbes or the chickens' immune system; its going to be a long process of cycling through wormers until the whole picture is cleaned up and done differently, because obviously what been done isn't working.

Can't agree with this more. Coccidiosis is the result of an overgrowth of something that is pretty common in the soil or even in the bowels, but only becomes a danger when either system is imbalanced. There are normal flora that keep cocci in check, both in the soil and in the intestines...when those are not healthy and thriving, then the bad guys can proliferate.

Most people don't look beyond medicines when trying to find a way to prevent cocci, but this comes right back to soils that are overimpacted by the over stocking of chickens on small spaces and not paying attention to the soils on which they live....barren, compact soils are just petri dishes for disease and parasites because there is nothing else living there to keep such things in check. Folks think that cleaning out the pen and run religiously will take care of all of that, but it's just not so.

 

[jlashaw]

Well I'll wait and see if Bee digs up those articles again @Ridgerunner before I try to find them... Lol I can tell you what microbe to use to kill mosquito larvae but I can't work a computer or cell phone without wanting to throw it in the creek ha-ha


By I did dig up some stuff on wormwood, just for reference for now; time allowing, I'll dug up the rest if the articles I have saved somewhere in my phone
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037887411000382X

http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S1751731107000730

http://www.biomedcentral.com/conten...f%EF%BF%BD%C3%A9e%EF%BF%BD%EF%BF%BD%C2%ACu%C3


And I do understand that a lot of owners don't have the space or options I do... I am greatly blessed with what I have to be able to pick up and move animals to completely different homesteads if need be, but I try to prevent that This spring we had an eerily wet spring, so I was on the watch for an increase in the crickets, because they've been known to cause worm infestations... It can get out if balance, but other plants also grew that I've never had and I found out one of them was Nettles, turns out to have anthelmintic properties! So, I got an excess if worm loaded crickets, but I also got a new plant to eradicate the worms they had

I would do the same thing as I do now if I had a serious infestation, with one twist... I would max out my beneficial microbes, order nematodes, change ph levels, medicate with all the plants I can find all at once, and pray that I was able to stop it. Or cull my entire flock.

Drastic measures yes, but these are livestock. Sure I adore my chooks, but I can't afford to do anything more for chickens. A cow, yes. Chicken no

Pets are pets. I DO worm cats and dogs occasionally, especially if I see a stray around or see feces with obvious worms. But they're pets and I don't eat them no drugs enter the food chain for sure, but I have organic crops here, so I'm not even ALLOWED to have wormers on my property unless approved by the USDA...

As always, its up to the owner to take all options into account and be fully educated before unknowingly giving medicines, because there actually ARE easier, better options if we just look around

The property we moved to this summer has nothing on it except trees, grass in the yard, which grows moss and mushrooms by the trees, and pine cones and pine needles. My chickens have been sick since being here with mites, Lice and respiratory issues. I have been researching what to put in the run as well as in the flower beds. The dirt seems like there's nothing in it. How can I change the PH?

 

[Beekissed]

I'd try some of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood

I'd see if I could get a local tree service to dump their ramial chips at your place and try to build some better soil with it. It's worth a shot. It'll take some time to compost but it should start creating a place for good microbial life to inhabit. Then I'd add green stuff to it on a regular basis. Later on, I'd start adding leaves as well.

That's how I'm building new soil on top of my acidic clay in the garden here and it's working...slowly but surely it's working.

You might look into composting deep litter, both in the coop and run:

Here's a couple of threads on it and they have evolved somewhat as people learned how best to manage it and build it, so I wouldn't stop at the first pages of either thread.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/643302/results-from-first-year-with-deep-litter-method

Another thing that plays into the relative health of your flock is breed and/or source selection. Choosing breeds that are known for being more naturally hardy is important, as is choosing a good source for that breed. Not all chickens are created equally. If you find that the chickens from a particular source are never truly hardy, it's time to leave that source alone. Same with a breed....same breed having the same problems such as crop distention/sour crop, egg bound, bare backs, bumble foot, illness of any kind, etc. then it's time to change out breeds...that one isn't working for your environment or management skills.

 

[jlashaw]

I'd try some of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood I'd see if I could get a local tree service to dump their ramial chips at your place and try to build some better soil with it. It's worth a shot. It'll take some time to compost but it should start creating a place for good microbial life to inhabit. Then I'd add green stuff to it on a regular basis. Later on, I'd start adding leaves as well. That's how I'm building new soil on top of my acidic clay in the garden here and it's working...slowly but surely it's working. You might look into composting deep litter, both in the coop and run: Here's a couple of threads on it and they have evolved somewhat as people learned how best to manage it and build it, so I wouldn't stop at the first pages of either thread. https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/643302/results-from-first-year-with-deep-litter-method Another thing that plays into the relative health of your flock is breed and/or source selection. Choosing breeds that are known for being more naturally hardy is important, as is choosing a good source for that breed. Not all chickens are created equally. If you find that the chickens from a particular source are never truly hardy, it's time to leave that source alone. Same with a breed....same breed having the same problems such as crop distention/sour crop, egg bound, bare backs, bumble foot, illness of any kind, etc. then it's time to change out breeds...that one isn't working for your environment or management skills.

I couldn't agree more about the source! I ordered six Black Australorp pullets in July from a free range farm. I also got some EE's from them. It was very apparent they weren't free range at all. They'd been kept under a light 24/7. It took a few weeks for them to calm down. But they had broken toes and ate feathers.... What a mess. Thank you for the advice. So far I'm doing most of that.

 

[Bridebeliever]

The good news is that I don't believe my chickens actually have cocci. I had surgery 4 weeks ago and have not been out there to clean the coop. My 18 year old has been doing it. I believe she saw intestinal shed not blood. I went and examined the roost area and coop today and saw no blood or even unusual poo at all.