too much corn????

[Mtnboomer]

Hi there.

First... if your feed is indeed 40% protein that's too much for chickens ( or is that only the sunflowers?)... Here in the US "meatbird" formulas top out around 22-25% protein max.

When it comes to energy, aka calories... it only comes from three sources... protein, fat, and carbs including fiber. Once any animal goes over it's energy need, it will store all excess energy as fat even if it comes from protein or carbs...

All my birds get a 20% protein flock raiser feed free choice from dawn to dusk plus free range pasture. I'm a tight wad on treats... despite KNOWING my ration is balanced... let me share a little of my experience with you...

I breed my birds, but have tried several breeds along the way to figuring out which one I really love both in my pasture and on my table...

Different birds carry different amounts of abdominal fat and fat directly beneath the skin. Sometimes it is individual more so than breed related (or even feed related IMO), as with the case of my Ameraucana boys, same blood line, different sizes and one had a huge fat pad . The Wyandottes had much more fat on them than my Marans, but it's been a while and I just remember how weird it was cuz back then I skinned and had my hand sooo greased up just from processing the bird. Easter Eggers, SFH, meh. Silkies, not bad considering size. Just like people... some store their fat better than others, I think.

Boiler fuel... great use!
(almost wish we had something like that, do you use the feathers also?)

Sounds like you got a good head on your shoulders! It's always interesting to see what folks in other countries have available to them and how they work through their concerns, so we might relay information if we come across another in similar circumstances.


For me.. (excess) fat is never desired on my live birds, which I line breed for generations on end... specifically abdominal fat which can crowd the abdominal cavity putting pressure on the heart and lungs making it generally harder to live... and also pressing on the egg duct, making it harder to lay eggs. Fat birds have decreased production according to the research I've done. And fat roosters can have a harder time connecting vents... reducing fertility. I spent bank and time gathering my stock... I cannot afford to let them die young from complications caused by me. If they aren't in breeding condition, they aren't much good for me. Feeding birds meant to stay only short term... ya, it's probably no big deal! I'm not a commercial grower... but a hobbyist with a goal of a self sustaining flock to provide for family long term without supporting big chicken (including hatcheries) EVER again. Guess I'm still supporting Big Ag by buying rations... from (likely) government subsidized supply lines.. We do what we can, one step at a time!

I do remember trying Brahma... only that they were so slow growing compared to my other breeds.. not ideal for long term ongoing freezer candidates for me... same as Orpington.

Brahma being a dual purpose breed... I personally would not go with "layer" feed and consider 18-20% protein a better choice to help build muscle... noting that it isn't just the protein but also the amino acids. 16% layer feed is made to keep light bodied birds like leghorn in laying condition. Depending on when you switch you *might* get better performance from higher protein?? I NEVER ever use layer anymore since learning the difference... but offer my oyster shell on the side free choice.. Very happy with my results, especially the decrease in molt intensity and duration! Please note I'm not saying layer is bad... just that it might not be the best choice.

I do agree... fat is flavorful, when prepared correctly!

My roos have NO PROBLEM ummm getting the job done but they weigh in at 7-8lbs on avg after processing. The hens are around 4-5lbs after processing. They definitely have fat but nothing that seems excessive. To me anyways. I may try to add protein especially in the winter when they are more feed dependent. I keep records of all body weight and age of birds harvested. Its only been 2 years of meat harvesting but there does appear to be a trend where fall slaughtered birds are heavier and with more meat than late winter/spring slaughtered.
Thanks for the advice!

 

[BDutch]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is fat bad? I raise Brahmas for meat and eggs fir personal consumption. They free range with free choice layer blend pellet supplement feed.
At butchering my birds have what I consider to be good fat. Fat is flavor. I can see commercial growers would be concerned but for the backyard butcher, whats the concern?

• A overweight hen does not lay as much eggs as her normal weight sisters.
• Being obese is not healthy. Not for humans, not for chickens or other animals like cats and dogs.
  

 

[Mtnboomer]

• A overweight hen does not lay as much eggs as her normal weight sisters.
• Being obese is not healthy. Not for humans, not for chickens or other animals like cats and dogs.
  

How much is too much fat? For example: if I have a 5lb processed bird (80oz) and i remove 2oz of fat from her abdomen, is that obese?
I ask because I see no evidence of unhealthy behavior in my birds while alive. Roosters do their thing without issue. Hens lay an egg every other day, which I was told is normal for Brahmas. In 3 yrs I have only had 1 hen die from heart disease but she was 3yrs old when we got her and 5 when she died.
They are free range and seem to be very active. I'm not saying I have an issue at the moment, but butchering is an excellent way of measuring flock health. So how much fat would be a red flag?
Thanks!

 

[chickens really]

How much is too much fat? For example: if I have a 5lb processed bird (80oz) and i remove 2oz of fat from her abdomen, is that obese?
I ask because I see no evidence of unhealthy behavior in my birds while alive. Roosters do their thing without issue. Hens lay an egg every other day, which I was told is normal for Brahmas. In 3 yrs I have only had 1 hen die from heart disease but she was 3yrs old when we got her and 5 when she died.
They are free range and seem to be very active. I'm not saying I have an issue at the moment, but butchering is an excellent way of measuring flock health. So how much fat would be a red flag?
Thanks!

I was told and I'm sure @aart will know. That there will be fat around the liver upon inspection..

 

[Mtnboomer]

Well, my wife hasn't been surprised or concerned about anything she has seen in them and she has necropsied everything from mice to a beached whale and just about everything in between. So i guess until I hear her say "whoa! Look at the fat!" I will assume everything is fine.

 

[aart]

I was told and I'm sure @aart will know. That there will be fat around the liver upon inspection..

Fat can effect the liver function, can also become so prolific that it 'chokes' out the other organs by taking up too much space in the abdominal cavity....including egg production.

Would be nice to see fat on the carcasses of the meat birds the OP @VanUnamed is talking about.

 

[BDutch]

How much is too much fat? For example: if I have a 5lb processed bird (80oz) and i remove 2oz of fat from her abdomen, is that obese?
I ask because I see no evidence of unhealthy behavior in my birds while alive. Roosters do their thing without issue. Hens lay an egg every other day, which I was told is normal for Brahmas. In 3 yrs I have only had 1 hen die from heart disease but she was 3yrs old when we got her and 5 when she died.
They are free range and seem to be very active. I'm not saying I have an issue at the moment, but butchering is an excellent way of measuring flock health. So how much fat would be a red flag?
Thanks!

Ik don't know how much is too much. Depends on lifestyle and aptitude too I presume. Just like people? Some people can eat a lot of fat without problems. Some people can only eat normal portions of healthy food to prevent overweight. Labouring or sitting all day makes al hell of a difference in what you need.

 

[Mtnboomer]

Ik don't know how much is too much. Depends on lifestyle and aptitude too I presume. Just like people? Some people can eat a lot of fat without problems. Some people can only eat normal portions of healthy food to prevent overweight. Labouring or sitting all day makes al hell of a difference in what you need.

Agreed, but those dependencies are variables that influence the deposition of fat while the animal is alive. I guess my question was geared more towards after I have processed it. When I open up the bird and find fat in its abdomen, how much would be considered unhealthy? Then if the fat is found to be excessive, we can start looking at the lifestyle choices the living birds are making and do an intervention.

 

[VanUnamed]

EggSighted4Life:
Here in romania is very, very common to just feed wheat OR barley and that's it for chickens.
Responsible owners feed them pellets, but so far, I didn't see this much. the store does sell these "concentrates" but I start to feel like in trying to do "good" we do worse. Concentrate is 40% protein as it is a mix of soy, sunflowers vitamins and minerals that you supplement in 1 cup every 3 of milled grains (we call this uroaie here).
Usually concentrate and grains is done for pigs, but in a 4 to 1 cups fashion. Concentrate i am buying for chicken is for chickens.
I just figured this right now. The concentrate has sunflowers, the milled grains have sunflowers. so how much fatty seed I am feeding? Who really knows.
I will confess you one thing. From december to march, money are really thight, so even at the cost of health or egg production, I said, 4 months won't kill you, so I started doing this. Half their feed has concentrate added, the other half is just milled grains. I did expect a drop in egg production, or weird behaviours, but guess what? No change in egg production at all, no weird behaviours.
We do give them meat trimmings or whatever is not edible from butchery. For example, I did butcher a pig, I let them eat pick all the leftover meat off the skull.

The adding of concentrate may sound easy for the common people, but i reality you are still making a mess with their nutritional requirements, simply because it's romania, you don't really know what do they put in milled grains. I asked my supplier which is a good guy, says 60% corn and unknown quantities of sunflowers and wheat, I didnt ask these, but by eye i see lots of everything, but it is hard to tell it's a powder

The excess fat thing, is a thing I noticed in the pig as well. Now I am not an expert, but to me, 70lb of "butchery cuts" and almost 40lb of excess fat that we rendered, seems a bit off. But I am not an expert.

I do also breed my own, and you are right on this genetic thing. the fattier birds were the meat type chicks I bought at the hatchery (a fox killed half of my own so I had buy these which are mixed breed and red ranger). Of this mixed breed, some are slim, other fat, but those that we breed ourselves are just.. well. Do you know the feeling of lifting up a brick? That. Are heavy, but their belly don't feel full of fat, nor the ones we took for meat were as fat. the fat is a biefelder of large weight, I know for a fact the father weighs no less than 20lb.

Further proof of this genetic thing? The light sussex I have, which are 3 boys and 3 girls, these were among the survivors of the fox attack (I had some sussex eggs from a nearby guy) are over 2 months that are eating ONLY milled grains and no concentrate at all, and are absolutely lightweight and don't feel fat at all (I do plan to integrate the girls before springtime and take the boys for meat)

Boiler fuel... great use! Yeah, I do know some people use chicken fat to cook, I just don't. I am alittle bit paranoid, as here boiler fuel is anything that isn't metal or glass who knows what it could be dissolved in it, also it is high in omega-6. I do use lard and olive oil for cooking. and feathers we do compost.

I also don't feel like supporting hatcheries in general. The mixed breed chicken I bought from a hatchery peck each other all the time. The boys were unstoppable, only the slaughter ended it. But the offpsring of my rooster were and are (the girls that are her daughters) much calmer


Would be nice to see fat on the carcasses of the meat birds the OP @VanUnamed is talking about.

Hi, I do not have pictures, all I have is a picture of a one and a year old hen that was sick (as you can see that is an eggbinding case, she was fine but didn't lay). That is an example, but the meat birds I took this fall were just 4 months old, see that fat? well. Much much more than so.

Thanks for the interest and the patience.

 

[aart]

she was fine but didn't lay

Not laying can create an accumulation of fat that would normally be used to create eggs.
Were the 4mo meat birds that fatty?