Too much protein?

[saysfaa]

I worry with 20% protein that my chickens will get kidney disease. I like getting more eggs daily but not at the expense of my hens dying earlier. I think I’ll go back to 16-18 % personally

I think any of these protein levels are safe for adult chickens. Twenty percent won't up the risk of kidney issues or anything else that shortens their life nor will 16% or 18% shorten their life.

The 16-18% was developed for shorter-lived birds because that timing works best for commercial operations for reasons unrelated to the composition of feed. That the feed was developed for that lifespan doesn't mean it isn't good for longer lifespans.

I do like to up the protein a little for molt, though.

 

[Altairsky]

16% does not support enough protein for molt or overwintering or healing because it is intended for caged birds in intensive farming that never live long enough for such things.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9179259/
"As expected, the dietary balanced protein influenced the dynamics of performance, body content, egg production, and egg mass of laying hens in the laying phase. The performance of laying hens increased with higher levels of balanced protein but other responses such as the feeding cost also influence the economic return and need to be considered to making a nutritional decision. The hen-housed egg production reduced in laying hens consuming a feed with low levels of dietary balanced protein. In this study, body ash was not mobilized, indicating that the minerals consumed were sufficient for egg production and that the dietary balanced protein levels applied in this study did not influence this variable. On the contrary, a mobilization of body fat was observed, being more evident at the end of laying cycle. The dietary balanced protein levels investigated in this study slightly affected the yolk percentage but had no influence on albumen and eggshell percentages. More persistence of egg production was observed for laying hens consuming a high dietary balanced protein feed."

 

[NestingMillenial]

I'm coming at this with no preconceived notion that one or the other is better, so please bear with me, just asking, not trying to argue here: the study does focus on egg production, and I was wondering if it would make sense to question that? As in, is laying more and bigger a good thing for the hens, in terms of health?

16% does not support enough protein for molt or overwintering or healing because it is intended for caged birds in intensive farming that never live long enough for such things.

In any case, it would seem like sound advice to feed more proteins at those times, regardless of anything else then, that's a good reminder!

 

[saysfaa]

...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9179259/
...

This study looks the effects of standard, lower than standard, and higher than standard percentages of protein fed to chicks.

"...how a modern hen may deal with a deficient diet during the growth and its impact in a long-term laying cycle...."

Edit to add: they did continue the three levels of protein through the two years... and (I think they said but I didn't see it clearly in the graphs) mixed which chickens got which level of protein as adults, so it wasn't only chicks.

 

[saysfaa]

... I was wondering if it would make sense to question that? As in, is laying more and bigger a good thing for the hens, in terms of health?
...

That makes sense.

I think laying more and bigger eggs can be detrimental to a hen in terms of her health.

Part of the puzzle is that the number and the size of her eggs is controlled mostly by genetics. These studies use hens with very similar genetic egg production potential.

Another part is persistence of lay. This study used that term to mean how well the hens maintained the same rate of lay as they reached about two years old. I mean it differently here. I mean how a hen responds to not having enough resources to lay at the same rate she would if she had enough resources. Does she lay fewer eggs at the first dip of her resources? Or does she continue laying at the same rate as her health fails? I don't know of any studies about this in chickens but it is very much a thing in other species. It is genetic. If one has chickens that don't have a lot of persistence of lay then you don't need to worry about her diet as much unless that extra 7 eggs per year makes a lot of difference to you.

Another part is how much margin is in your plan. If you have lights on through the winter to maximize egg production then you have less margin in your plan. If your hens are in cages or overcrowded, then there is less margin in your plan because of the high stress levels.

When there is less margin in the plan then it is more important to get all the elements of the diet spot on.

I think, if you do get the elements close enough to spot on to match the margin in your plan, that laying more or bigger eggs is not detrimental to your chickens' health.

 

[Debbie292d]

I feed 20% Kalmbach's Flock Maker to every bird here, which is a ton of various aged silkies and two ducks.

I was actually thinking of switching it up to 24% since there's a few specialty brands that make it specifically for silkies and exotics. That has absolutely nothing to do with eggs; it's for aesthetics...to make beautiful birds.

These have done well on the 20% though, so I'm still thinking about it.

 

[SourRoses]

I was actually thinking of switching it up to 24% since there's a few specialty brands that make it specifically for silkies and exotics. That has absolutely nothing to do with eggs; it's for aesthetics...to make beautiful birds.

These have done well on the 20% though, so I'm still thinking about it.

I feed that 24% Nutrena Silkie crumble to my large breed chicks, it's rather awesome how much shinier their feathers come in. They grow quicker too. Down to 20% All Flock when they get to the messiest age (just did that with 3 week olds). I like knowing they had everything they could need when they're just starting life.
Then I use the 22% Layer in a separate feeder for my old girl who doesn't understand oyster shell and has arthritis (from her early life). She does wonderfully on it and some younger layers help her finish it up every day even though they have several feeders with 20% All Flock.

To the main conversation...
I've been feeding higher protein than most for years with no adverse affects. Only good results, like better feathering.
A hen can only lay an egg if it fits through her pelvic aperture... In other words, her body determines what is possible. So the idea that larger eggs are dangerous is unfounded. The worst eggs for size are those occasional pullet monstrosities and they are almost always just fine after those.

Egg binding is caused by calcium / synergistic nutrient deficiency, OR excessive fat buildup around the reproductive tract, OR structural defects or hormonal issues.

And the fat buildup isn't caused by protein but by excessive fat in the diet, which makes the suggestions in this thread to mix in scratch counterproductive.

I suspect the main incentive to be against protein is expense, and maybe folks try to justify it after the fact. So really, it's okay to make a decision for financial reasons (as long as animals don't starve). Just understand the potential downsides so you can be ready to respond if needed. Molt is one time that can really show the lack of protein, so it's a good time to level up.

 

[Perris]

And the fat buildup isn't caused by protein but by excessive fat in the diet

this is a myth. The cause is excess carbohydrates, i.e. corn/maize, which the liver turns into fat for storage in the chicken's body. For some mysterious reason this is often glossed as a 'high-energy' diet (but since processed poultry feed contains very little fat anyway and lots of carbs, it should be obviously deducible from that).

Indeed, one of the recommended methods for control and prevention of it is to substitute some fat for carbs, i.e. put in fats and take carbs out: "Control of disease can be achieved by monitoring body weight and daily feed intake. Energy intake should be limited; alternatively, supplemental fat can be substituted for carbohydrate, while keeping total energy stable." https://www.msdvetmanual.com/poultr...ome-in-poultry?query=FLHS#Diagnosis_v44232407

 

[Luna Mesa]

Is there such a thing as too much protein? I'm currently feeding 25% protein to my 6wk pullets, 14wk pullets, and 3 roosters. Will too much protein affect the development of growing pullets intended for egg production? Will too much protein affect laying hens negatively, by making them too fat? Will too much protein make chickens too fat?

A little extra protein won’t hurt baby chicks, but going over 23–25% for long stretches can. Chicks don’t get “angel wing” like ducks, but excess protein can outpace bone and organ growth. You’ll sometimes see leg problems, kidney strain, poor feathering, or even feather picking when the diet’s too rich for too long.

For meat birds, 22% is a solid target — plenty for steady growth without joint or heart issues. Slower breeds like Orpingtons do best starting around 20–22% for the first couple weeks, then dropping to 18–20% once they’re feathered out.

In short: 22% is great for broilers, fine short-term for layers, but not something to run all the way through on slower breeds.

 

[Luna Mesa]

HI.

They can't really have too much protein...

Protein is easily eliminated by the birds body... not like some vitamins and minerals like calcium.. which can build up to harmful levels.

The reason adult chicken feed in lower in protein is that the birds don't need such high levels as the chicks.

Also adding more protein makes the feed more expensive.. and its just a waste of money.

That's not true.
Excess protein can outpace bone and organ growth. You’ll sometimes see leg problems, kidney strain, poor feathering, or even feather picking when the diet’s too rich for too long.