training chickens for voluntary flight

[Nickeyo]

Wait for it to snow,then put them out in it and they may well fly to get around

 

[centrarchid]

Chicken Training Thread. This approach specific but can make good starting point for more advanced methods. Videos also included.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

I have a question and I am hoping some one can answer or direct me towards a resource. The all mighty chicken wing: I am trying to understand better the effect of wing shape and placement on the body to flight performance of chickens.

My question is what sort of wing does a chicken have? (High Speed, Eliptical, High aspect ratio, Soaring or in between two types)

My next is does placement effect flight? What I mean is some breeds have a clearly high placement, others a more Jungle Fowl placement and others seem near vertical and so on.

I found one study that concluded asymmetrical wings totally effect the birds flight distance, it also had notes from several other bird studies that helped with understanding the effect of tail symmetry... totally important in long-tailed species, not so much in short tailed species. Toe symmetry turns out to be important in landing accuracy too from that study. Leg symmetry mainly seemed to effect walking. Asymmetric primary flight feathers also equals poor flight performance.

Does anyone know if tail placement effects flight? or walking ability?

 

[centrarchid]

I have a question and I am hoping some one can answer or direct me towards a resource. The all mighty chicken wing: I am trying to understand better the effect of wing shape and placement on the body to flight performance of chickens.

My question is what sort of wing does a chicken have? (High Speed, Eliptical, High aspect ratio, Soaring or in between two types)

My next is does placement effect flight? What I mean is some breeds have a clearly high placement, others a more Jungle Fowl placement and others seem near vertical and so on.

I found one study that concluded asymmetrical wings totally effect the birds flight distance, it also had notes from several other bird studies that helped with understanding the effect of tail symmetry... totally important in long-tailed species, not so much in short tailed species. Toe symmetry turns out to be important in landing accuracy too from that study. Leg symmetry mainly seemed to effect walking. Asymmetric primary flight feathers also equals poor flight performance.

Does anyone know if tail placement effects flight? or walking ability?

Based on game-chickens. Asymmetry is not something I see as obvious and when it is, it indicates other issues and is culled when noticed. From what I can see wing placement does not differ relative to the shoulder area. What does differ is the posture (low station which approximates wild-type versus high station typified by the game asiatic breeds) and a component of the type imposed impart by relative size between wing related area and rest of body. Many breeds have a strongly developed posterior with lots of guts pulling the birds center of gravity back. Cornish X push that to the other extreme with the large breast but they are physically incompetent. Best flight performance I associate with the low station body, well developed breast and strong feathering. There is also a muscle / physical condition part that cannot be ignored. Tail placement is a hard to assess as birds adjust tail for and in flight. Feathering is clearly important for flight. Birds in hard molt (tail feathers being replaced) have shorter range and greatly reduced maneuverability. Additionally while hard molt under way the wings are also less than optimal as feather replacement their also impacts all aspects of flight. Flight type. Overall chickens are designed for rapid acceleration in tight places. When trimmed out velocity is high and I am estimating it to be at least 35 mph and briefly faster than horse can run.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

Based on game-chickens.

Asymmetry is not something I see as obvious and when it is, it indicates other issues and is culled when noticed.

From what I can see wing placement does not differ relative to the shoulder area. What does differ is the posture (low station which approximates wild-type versus high station typified by the game asiatic breeds) and a component of the type imposed impart by relative size between wing related area and rest of body. Many breeds have a strongly developed posterior with lots of guts pulling the birds center of gravity back. Cornish X push that to the other extreme with the large breast but they are physically incompetent.

Best flight performance I associate with the low station body, well developed breast and strong feathering. There is also a muscle / physical condition part that cannot be ignored.


Tail placement is a hard to assess as birds adjust tail for and in flight. Feathering is clearly important for flight. Birds in hard molt (tail feathers being replaced) have shorter range and greatly reduced maneuverability. Additionally while hard molt under way the wings are also less than optimal as feather replacement their also impacts all aspects of flight.

Flight type. Overall chickens are designed for rapid acceleration in tight places. When trimmed out velocity is high and I am estimating it to be at least 35 mph and briefly faster than horse can run.

Thank you so much for your reply. I prefer birds that can fly, having had a VRJF hen or "Vietnamese Jungle Bird" (over 20 plus years ago) which upon doing research many years latter she may or may not have not been RJF as VJB hens look a little like RJF but are not at all RJF, her sounds where different and her behaviors different as well to the regular chicken hens... she lived a long life but may have not been RJF, I can not replace her if she was a VJB as they are now on the Endangered List, anyhow she was an amazing flier. I began wondering if I where to breed birds in the future what traits I need to preserve both physically and mentally for flight ability.

I know chickens can be trained to come as when we had a bigger flock in the past the birds would come to the same whistle recall as our dogs, as they figured out food might be involved. So I always figured you could train them to fly to you. My birds are EE hens right now... but they will fly grant you short distances... I plan on getting chicks if not this year than next spring so I want something light weight for wing weight ratio in favor of flight, good sized wings, good breast, lower station... no weight/low weight in the rear end.

I wonder what the average length of the RJF's wing is compared to breeds of chickens with a similar weight... I am partial to game breeds too.

The asymmetry in the study I read seemed to be not huge but I need to pull the paper up to double check the data, they where concerned with fear response and stress mostly in laying birds but the physical performance data did correlate with a faster recovery time from the playing dead response... so birds that where more physically capable of escaping by flight & landing well had lower fear responses than in general when compared to birds who could not fly as well, and general compounded physical traits corresponded with bad flights: also certain breeds did seem to do better, but they where all spanish breeds and not breeds I could just easily google to get a clue on what might be similar here. The paper also included info collected on flight for other species... things I took away from those notes where long tails have a huge effect if the tail is asymmetrical, legs supply 1/4 the launch power making the wing's power more important it seems to launching.

Another article I read notes a difference in chicken brains between wild and captive birds... wild birds have bigger brains and also seem to track better eyesight wise.

As to meat birds like the Cornish do they even fly once full grown? I had a Cornish stag years ago, I can't remember ever seeing him fly at all.

I have had a variety of breeds seems all could fly (except maybe the Cornish bird who went to a friend latter and I just don't remember ever seeing him fly in my friend's yard either) just some had to work harder than others but none could match that little Vietnamese hen we had, nor did they want to stay a loft in trees like she did.

 

[centrarchid]

Thank you so much for your reply. I prefer birds that can fly, having had a VRJF hen or "Vietnamese Jungle Bird" (over 20 plus years ago) which upon doing research many years latter she may or may not have not been RJF as VJB hens look a little like RJF but are not at all RJF, her sounds where different and her behaviors different as well to the regular chicken hens... she lived a long life but may have not been RJF, I can not replace her if she was a VJB as they are now on the Endangered List, anyhow she was an amazing flier. I began wondering if I where to breed birds in the future what traits I need to preserve both physically and mentally for flight ability. 

I know chickens can be trained to come as when we had a bigger flock in the past the birds would come to the same whistle recall as our dogs, as they figured out food might be involved. So I always figured you could train them to fly to you. My birds are EE hens right now... but they will fly grant you short distances... I plan on getting chicks if not this year than next spring so I want something light weight for wing weight ratio in favor of flight, good sized wings, good breast, lower station... no weight/low weight in the rear end. 

I wonder what the average length of the RJF's wing is compared to breeds of chickens with a similar weight... I am partial to game breeds too.

The asymmetry in the study I read seemed to be not huge but I need to pull the paper up to double check the data, they where concerned with fear response and stress mostly in laying birds but the physical performance data did correlate with a faster recovery time from the playing dead response... so birds that where more physically capable of escaping by flight & landing well had lower fear responses than in general when compared to birds who could not fly as well, and general compounded physical traits corresponded with bad flights: also certain breeds did seem to do better, but they where all spanish breeds and not breeds I could just easily google to get a clue on what might be similar here. The paper also included info collected on flight for other species... things I took away from those notes where long tails have a huge effect if the tail is asymmetrical, legs supply 1/4 the launch power making the wing's power more important it seems to launching. 

Another article I read notes a difference in chicken brains between wild and captive birds... wild birds have bigger brains and also seem to track better eyesight wise. 

As to meat birds like the Cornish do they even fly once full grown? I had a Cornish stag years ago, I can't remember ever seeing him fly at all. 

I have had a variety of breeds seems all could fly (except maybe the Cornish bird who went to a friend latter and I just don't remember ever seeing him fly in my friend's yard either) just some had to work harder than others but none could match that little Vietnamese hen we had, nor did they want to stay a loft in trees like she did. 

Old English Bantams have a similar size and wing loading relative to the RJF. Old English Bantams lack the physical abilities of an RJF and are on the less intelligent end of the chicken spectrum.


When comparing wild versus domestic, papers I read considered only one domestic breed and it is not one that would have have any selective pressure for maintaining survival ability in the wild. It would have been better if games of some sort were used in the analysis instead.

My games in general will not keep up with a Jungle Fowl on the wing although all bets are off if my games where to be raised by a Jungle Fowl hen. I have had some games that could fly distances Red Jungle Fowl are reputed to but it required a lot of conditioning as the games are often flat out reluctant to fly any distance.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

Old English Bantams have a similar size and wing loading relative to the RJF. Old English Bantams lack the physical abilities of an RJF and are on the less intelligent end of the chicken spectrum.


When comparing wild versus domestic, papers I read considered only one domestic breed and it is not one that would have have any selective pressure for maintaining survival ability in the wild. It would have been better if games of some sort were used in the analysis instead.

My games in general will not keep up with a Jungle Fowl on the wing although all bets are off if my games where to be raised by a Jungle Fowl hen. I have had some games that could fly distances Red Jungle Fowl are reputed to but it required a lot of conditioning as the games are often flat out reluctant to fly any distance.

That is interesting on the reluctance to fly... well we humans probably selected for that

So RJF are around hens 3 lb., cocks 4 1/2 lb.

Standard OEG are about 1 1/2 lb. larger... what do you think? Or have they been dumbed down too much?

American Game weight range? Are some lines more flight worthy?

The EEs are in the 4-5 1/2 lb. to 5 1/2-6 lb. range (so similar weights to OEG).

Maybe I should try and dig up everything I can on RJF to get an idea of their body design.

 

[centrarchid]

Interest in flying can be a learned characteristic. RJF's I had as brooder reared where not inclined to fly like full-siblings that were hen reared by mother that got them out and about. Integrating the brooder reared with hen reared restored flying habit.

OEG likely no longer exist. Closest will be Spanish Games with nest closest being American Games. Smaller Spanish Games overlap RJF's with respect to weight. Smallest American Game strains can be barely into RJF's weight range and up to the mid 6's with some older strains although I do not know if they still exist.

Flighty as typically used in behavior not appropriate here because to broad in meaning. Typically flightiness equals inclination to flee from a stimulis. RJF's in their default wild-type setting are very much that but they can be tamed at lot more that many think. My games, according to how they are reared can vary greatly as well but generally are on the less flighty end of the spectrum. Properly (or improperly conditioned) they can cause self harm by being scared enough to fly up and collide with ceiling.

Controlling for flightiness, there is a great deal of variation between and within strains of American Games when it comes to flight-worthiness (capacity for flight). Based on what I have seen the inclusion of Aseel into many American Game strains has not helped flight capacity.


I have seen EE's and their capacity for flight is not noteworthy. They are better than average but will not fly in a U-shaped or even circular pattern over a woods with launching and landing points on the ground. Many Games can do such.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

Okay this gives some ideas on where to start. I will probably put off bringing chicks home till next spring, I will however begin experimenting with basic conditioning on the pre-existing birds... so I can make the mistakes on them first.

Basically they will have to start working for dinner... I can only do AM training 3 days a week as I literally go to work before any chicken wakes up here including my neighbor's birds. So PM training 4 days a week. So I am going to start with name recognition... then move from there as I need to get experience with actually trying to train them to do things on command. So I will try figuring out a cheap treat they will want.

The Dark Bird: Amidala is heavier than the Light Bird: Leia.