Two questions for gun control people

[hemet dennis]

Quote: And they want to make it so retired NYPD can carry more ammo then regular people.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

What would the discussion be if it was a terrorist who had come in to the country and attacked that school ?

TSA lines at the bus stops..

 

[Demosthine]

You want children to grow up in an environment in which teachers stand in front of a class with an AR15 slung over their shoulders at the ready? Would you want a child of yours to see a teacher fire one of those things at a human being in front of them?

It isn't about having anyone walking around with AR-15s. That shows either your gross misunderstanding of the recommendations about having armed staff at the school or a gross mis-portrayal by the media in your country of what certain Americans are pushing for. We are not attempting to become Israel, where the teachers are armed with AK-47s. The idea is to have staff trained and armed, carrying a concealed firearm, under circumstances that the students and visitors are unaware of who is carrying.

No, I don't want my child to stand there seeing a teacher fire at a human in front of them. I want my children fully able to defend themselves in the event that their teachers are not willing or able to defend the students. Being in the law enforcement field, I am fully aware of how many law enforcement and military professionals have failed to fire their weapons when it was necessary during a lethal force incident. In fact, it is estimated that, up until the Vietnam War, when training tactics were drastically changed, nearly 95% of the soldiers failed to fire their weapons at all, in the middle of combat zones.

I have started by six and eight year olds on firearms training. My wife brought them in to our relationship a little over two years ago, so I have had very limited time with them, but since I am always carrying, there was an immediate curiosity about the handgun. From our first time lounging at her house, the discussion began about never touching guns without their Mom or I being present and explicitly stating it is acceptable. Most recently, we have begun them memorizing the four primary rules of gun safety. I took the eldest out for her first time to the range last month. They must learn to respect them and to know the consequences of what happens.

That is a huge part of the problem with America today. In the 60s and 70s, there was a huge "hippie" movement that was pro-peace and anti-gun. A very large portion of that entire generation failed to learn proper gun safety and gun handling. That generation was never exposed to hunting or the process of killing and processing an animal for food. As such, that generation began a large separation from reality when it comes to both topics, guns and food processing. This has only been exacerbated by the fact that that generation failed to teach the same levels of respect and understanding to the new generation that is causing all of these issues.

Your first sentence is neither correct nor relevant to the topic.

I agree that some folk in the any-gun-any-person-any-place brigade do need to come into the 21st Century. AR15s, according to gun experts I have listened to, are not hunting rifles and not appropriate in any civilian hands. Their only purpose is to kill people and, in the last few massacres in the US , they have been used for just that. I understand that people who just want to play soldiers at the gun club will lose this particular weapon but, surely, the greater good of the community must be considered above that.

Did you notice in the video that the girlie had no idea how to handle the gun after firing? It's a wonder she didn't mash her feet. Also, in the background, were some bottles that looked very much like beer bottles. Tut tut!

I have no idea what animals there are to hunt in your section of the world, but here in America, there are a very large number of animals that the AR-15 is an ideal weapon for. With such a varied range of ammunition, it is capable of taking everything from rabbits and gophers to javelina, wild boar and full size elk. Yes, it depends heavily on what type of ammunition you are firing as to the capability of the weapon.

In fact, the Arizona Game and Fish recommended the Remington .223 as the ideal round for my javelina, mountain lion and deer hunts this year. This the single government entity that is in charge of our entire hunting regulations here in Arizona. They said that this particular round would easily penetrate the tough skin of the animals, while maintaining a proper expansion. Due to their lower mass and controlled expansion, they are much less likely to explode the cavity and waste the bulk of the animal's meat.

I agree with the mental health issue. But just allowing permitted teachers to carry puts a deterrent to attacking schools. What would the discussion be if it was a terrorist who had come in to the country and attacked that school ?

I believe I mentioned this early, but Al Queda has already threatened our American children, saying we owe them 4 million America lives, 2 million of which are children. They also said that the massacre in Beslan, Russia was a practice run for what they would do to the American schools once we have removed our military forces from Afghanistan. To make matters more interesting, evacuation plans and floor plans for schools in six states have been found in the Middle East in the hands of the terrorist organizations. Where do you think they will take the lives of 2 million children? Certainly not at birthday parties and Chuck-e-Cheese.

 

[thaiturkey]

I try to stay away from the personal attacks you seem to resort to. You also try to put words that people haven't used to inflame what their saying. No one said to arm teachers with AR's. No one said to stock the schools with guns. Just because someone doesn't agree with what you think is logical, doesn't make what they say irrational or crazy.
When you make everyplace a gun free zone then the crazies will run wild. Not only will the bad guys be the only ones armed, they wont even have to be armed with guns. A baseball bat will break a person up real bad. Now the crazies are attacking gun free zones so we'll make everyplace a gun free zone just to make it easier for them.
AR's are good hunting and predator protection guns. So the people who told you different are wrong.

Dennis, you wrote:

If Erika was their teacher they would be talking about it today.

Isn't that suggesting that teachers should have guns?

If it's not, then other people are suggesting it. Crazy logic that suits only future gun sales and creates a paranoid adulthood for the students.

AR15s are being used in massacres. How can anyone not see that something has to be done to stop that? Setting up schools for shootouts isn't the answer. The solution seems to be illusive in the US even though other countries have managed to deal with it.

As for protecting students at school, have you not heard of gates and locks?

 

[thaiturkey]

It isn't about having anyone walking around with AR-15s. That shows either your gross misunderstanding of the recommendations about having armed staff at the school or a gross mis-portrayal by the media in your country of what certain Americans are pushing for. We are not attempting to become Israel, where the teachers are armed with AK-47s. The idea is to have staff trained and armed, carrying a concealed firearm, under circumstances that the students and visitors are unaware of who is carrying.

No, I don't want my child to stand there seeing a teacher fire at a human in front of them. I want my children fully able to defend themselves in the event that their teachers are not willing or able to defend the students. Being in the law enforcement field, I am fully aware of how many law enforcement and military professionals have failed to fire their weapons when it was necessary during a lethal force incident. In fact, it is estimated that, up until the Vietnam War, when training tactics were drastically changed, nearly 95% of the soldiers failed to fire their weapons at all, in the middle of combat zones.

I have started by six and eight year olds on firearms training. My wife brought them in to our relationship a little over two years ago, so I have had very limited time with them, but since I am always carrying, there was an immediate curiosity about the handgun. From our first time lounging at her house, the discussion began about never touching guns without their Mom or I being present and explicitly stating it is acceptable. Most recently, we have begun them memorizing the four primary rules of gun safety. I took the eldest out for her first time to the range last month. They must learn to respect them and to know the consequences of what happens.

That is a huge part of the problem with America today. In the 60s and 70s, there was a huge "hippie" movement that was pro-peace and anti-gun. A very large portion of that entire generation failed to learn proper gun safety and gun handling. That generation was never exposed to hunting or the process of killing and processing an animal for food. As such, that generation began a large separation from reality when it comes to both topics, guns and food processing. This has only been exacerbated by the fact that that generation failed to teach the same levels of respect and understanding to the new generation that is causing all of these issues.


I have no idea what animals there are to hunt in your section of the world, but here in America, there are a very large number of animals that the AR-15 is an ideal weapon for. With such a varied range of ammunition, it is capable of taking everything from rabbits and gophers to javelina, wild boar and full size elk. Yes, it depends heavily on what type of ammunition you are firing as to the capability of the weapon.

In fact, the Arizona Game and Fish recommended the Remington .223 as the ideal round for my javelina, mountain lion and deer hunts this year. This the single government entity that is in charge of our entire hunting regulations here in Arizona. They said that this particular round would easily penetrate the tough skin of the animals, while maintaining a proper expansion. Due to their lower mass and controlled expansion, they are much less likely to explode the cavity and waste the bulk of the animal's meat.


I believe I mentioned this early, but Al Queda has already threatened our American children, saying we owe them 4 million America lives, 2 million of which are children. They also said that the massacre in Beslan, Russia was a practice run for what they would do to the American schools once we have removed our military forces from Afghanistan. To make matters more interesting, evacuation plans and floor plans for schools in six states have been found in the Middle East in the hands of the terrorist organizations. Where do you think they will take the lives of 2 million children? Certainly not at birthday parties and Chuck-e-Cheese.

Someone hanging around in a schools with a concealed gun is sure to get a shooter before he gets the students? Dream on.

Are you saying that you want students to carry guns in school? Surely not.

If trained soldiers and police fail to shoot accurately or at all, what chance a civilian?

Hippies are to blame for the massacres today?

You really need a gun that can fire 100 rounds in one minute to hunt wild animals? What did the pioneers use when they actually needed to hunt for food?

Show me some evidence that Al Qaeda plans massacre in the US, apart from their or some government's propaganda. If there is an attack or a threat thereof, don't you have legitimate forces to deal with it? Do you think that terrorists could not overwhelm an armed guard? Do you think they will use guns or are they more likely to use bombs and other devices? It's paranoia and you need to consider who gains from such propaganda.

The desperate logic of intransigent people on the defensive is becoming farcical. Why not consider the possibility that people might walk the streets in safety one day and work on how to achieve that?

 

[hemet dennis]

Quote:
To have gun free zones is crazy logic that suits some peoples false sense of security.

How do you think the millions of other kids feel when they ask their teacher if something like that could happen to them and the teacher has to tell them yes it can because the good guys aren't allowed to have guns to protect kids ? Then the kids ask well banks have good guys that are armed. Then the teacher has to explain to them that those good guys are guarding money and that's more important then kids. Then the kids say that the Presidents kids school has good guys that are armed. And the teacher has to explain that the Presidents kids are more important then they are. Then the teacher tells the kids we have gates and locks to protect you. And the kids say did that other school have gates and locks. And the teacher tell them yes they did that's why the bad guy shot his way in. Then the kids ask why cant the good guys have guns at schools like teachers. And the teacher will explain to them that the logic of some crazy people say that not letting the good guys be armed will keep the bad guys away.

I'm sure those kids will grow up just fine.

 

[hemet dennis]

Quote: We are waiting for England to achieve that.

 

[Demosthine]

Someone hanging around in a schools with a concealed gun is sure to get a shooter before he gets the students? Dream on.

Are you saying that you want students to carry guns in school? Surely not.

If trained soldiers and police fail to shoot accurately or at all, what chance a civilian?

Hippies are to blame for the massacres today?

You really need a gun that can fire 100 rounds in one minute to hunt wild animals? What did the pioneers use when they actually needed to hunt for food?

Show me some evidence that Al Qaeda plans massacre in the US, apart from their or some government's propaganda. If there is an attack or a threat thereof, don't you have legitimate forces to deal with it? Do you think that terrorists could not overwhelm an armed guard? Do you think they will use guns or are they more likely to use bombs and other devices? It's paranoia and you need to consider who gains from such propaganda.

The desperate logic of intransigent people on the defensive is becoming farcical. Why not consider the possibility that people might walk the streets in safety one day and work on how to achieve that?

A large part of it is not the actual use of the concealed weapon, is the possibility that that weapon is present and may be used that is the greatest deterent. There are a great many news stories where a concealed weapons holder was able to stop an incident by simply displaying the firearm. The shooting at the mall in Portland, Oregan has video of a concealed carrier display his weapon and aim at the active shooter. He was concerned about his backdrop, therefore chose not to fire. The active shooter saw that he had a direct threat and killed himself within 90 seconds of that encounter. I believe it was in Georgia recently, there was a subject who purchased a large knife, unpackaged it and started stabbing people prior to exiting the store. Again, a concealed carrier displayed his firearm and told the subject to stop. The subject complied and the incident was stopped without any shots fired or additional victims injured.

Also, all of the mass-shootings in the last decade that I can recall, with one exception, were in gun-free zones, which re-inforces the statements above. They were at schools, churches, theaters and on the military base. The exception to that is the shooting in Tucson, Arizona involving the murder of six people. At that attack, former Senator Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head and is on a long road to recovery. President Clinton signed a law in 1994 that no firearms may be kept in personal possession on the base, with the exception of on-duty, active-duty military police. At all other times, all weapons and ammunition must be stored in the base armory. They must explicitly be checked out and the military personnel will be escorted to the base gates, to be given the firearm and/or ammunition upon leaving the base premise.

I can rapid fire my 1911, reload an additional magazine and rapid fire that magazine with a very high rate of accuracy, in the same amount of time as a Glock shooter can fire his single 17 or 19 round magazine. I wouldn't call it 100 rounds per minute, but then I couldn't accurately fire an AR-15 at that rate, either. It isn't the speed of the gun, unless it's a fully automatic or burst automatic, that is the concern. In answer to your pioneer question, the cave men used clubs to hunt. Likewise, there has been evidence that they used clubs to kill each other, also. During the bow and arrow era, arrows were used to hunt animals and fight wars. During the musket era, the soldiers used their same military rifles to hunt. That's a pretty useless point.

There is no evidence of any terrorists threats other than our government or the terrorist organization's propaganda. If you search for it, you can find both the transcripts and the video of Osama bin Laden making the threats against Americans and our children. If you search for it, you will also find reports from the F.B.I. and C.I.A. informing various school districts in various states that their security plans have been compromised. We have trained security at our airport terminals, and yet the hijackers were able to hijack four planes in the attacks on September 11th. Theoretically, our "legitimate forces" should have been able to deal with it and were not.

In the attacks on Beslan, they did use a large amount of firearms for their initial rade, as well as systematically targetting first responders during the three-day hostage period. They also used improvised explosives, fire, rape, torture and parental abandonment as their weapons. Terrorist organizations can not be planned for, hence the reason that every citizen needs to take personal responsibility for their own safety. It's been declared in court numerous times in the United States that law enforcement officers are not required to protect any person or property. Each individual is responsible for their own safety. So when our government has declared that, what else can you expect the citizens to do but to ensure their personal defense.

Sorry this is a bit rushed, but I'm on the way out of work in about five minutes.

 

[bakerjw]

What concealed carry does do is provide a deterrent. It has been shown countless times that criminal activity is curtailed when there is a question as to whether intended victims may have the means to defend themselves. It is unheard of to hear about a carjacking in my state where the percentage of concealed carry is pretty high. The use of firearms by CCW holders is almost non existent.

The elephant in the room that gets constantly ignored is that the vast majority of firearm violence is committed in the inner city by minorities who are involved in gang or drug related activities. Gang member will shoot and kill, stab and kill, bludgeon and kill, anyone from a rival gang that walks down the wrong side of the street or crosses their turf. They will also perform the same tactics on a high profile target like a family making a wrong turn and accidentally getting in the wrong part of town. Chicago had over 500 gun related homicides last year and these weren't committed by law abiding 2nd amendment supporters. Educated law abiding Americans are being vilified and the campaign machine is warming up in the wings to carry the message even further. But with statements like "Why not consider the possibility that people might walk the streets in safety one day and work on how to achieve that?", why not focus on the problem of the majority of gun violence. You can walk down almost every street in my town without fear. The only fear that I have when riding the back roads on my bicycle is that I might pass by a meth lab.

Obama gives a great speech about the need for more gun control, etc... etc... etc... but not a word about building up the family or changing the culture of the inner city. Those kids are at the greatest risk but are ignored because it's not a politically beneficial topic. I've got 2 friends that grew up in the South end of Chicago and made it into good jobs. I told one that he had my respect for doing so. His response? "I didn't have a choice. Daddy'd whup me if I ever got in trouble". We have a gun problem in this country but it isn't those of us that are portrayed as nut jobs by the media.

 

[thaiturkey]

We are waiting for England to achieve that.

Well, it's further down the road to achieving it than where you live.