Update. hen on ACS Please help!

[Gayle R463]

Her Crop still doughy first thing today before water & massage. Poop about same but not very much of it. I've started giving olive oil.

Please, I need advice on this plan. I think I will order something allowed for worming for whenever I can start it after the ACS. I don't know when they were last wormed.

Oh, what does the small 'eye' on the side of my first post mean, please? Thanks

 

[Kiki]

What is wrong with your chick?
Symptoms?
What is ACS?
What have you done so far?


The eye means you are watching that thread.

 

[Gayle R463]

Thanks. My earlier post on this gave complete details of her crop issue and the use of the ACS: 'Day 7 using ACS for doughy crop'

 

[rebrascora]

@KikisGirls

ACS is acidified copper sulphate used to treat sour crop.

@Gayle R463

I appreciate that you are getting desperate but it helps if you continue to update your original post rather than start a new post which contains almost no information.

Unfortunately your first post on the subject is not overly clear. You say she was laying rubber eggs earlier in the summer..... what do you mean by that.... some people consider a shell less egg a rubber egg, others consider a lash egg to be a rubber egg. If it was a lash egg, then that would indicate that she has salpingitis and if it is now restricting her digestive tract and causing her crop to be slow/impacted, there may unfortunately be little hope. If they were just shell less eggs then that is less of a worry as sometimes this happens towards the end of a hens cycle as she approaches moult and her body's nutrients are becoming depleted. Abdominal swelling would suggest salpingitis. Check the area around her vent and between her legs and compare with your other hens to get an idea of any abnormal swelling in those area.
If it is not a reproductive issue (salpingitis or internal laying or EYP) that is causing her slow crop, then I would look towards it probably being an impaction. I appreciate that you do not feel able to do surgery, but if there is fibrous material in there that is all matted up into a big soggy tangle, then it may not be possible for it to break up or be regurgitated or go down through her system before she starves to death. And in fact that fibrous material passing into her gizzard as one mass will clog her up completely and kill her. Also, giving her a wormer will not help, if her crop is impacted, even if she has worms, as the chemicals will not easily progress through her system to kill the worms.

ACS will treat sour crop which is a yeast overgrowth, but it will do nothing for an impaction and after 7 days, I would have expected it to clear a sour crop, so it sounds like you can probably rule that out.

So, the options we have are that there is something further down her digestive tract backing her up..... reproductive tract issue or tumour (usually some swelling would be noticeable) or possibly worms (a faecal sample can be examined by a vet or laboratory for worm eggs called a faecal float or worm egg count) ........
or ..... she has an impacted crop that is not responding to stool softener or palpitation and needs to be physically removed.
If she has lost as much weight as you say, then time is running out. Please get back to us with results of physical examination of abdomen and vent, and more information on those "rubber eggs", so that we can try to narrow things down a bit. Also, you mention using Strike III. When was that and for how long were they treated?.... that might rule out worms.

 

[Kiki]

AHA...I should have looked for other threads by OP.
My bad.

 

[Kiki]

Original thread :
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-crop-need-more-advice.1202042/#post-19043147

 

[Gayle R463]

@KikisGirls

ACS is acidified copper sulphate used to treat sour crop.

@Gayle R463

I appreciate that you are getting desperate but it helps if you continue to update your original post rather than start a new post which contains almost no information.

Unfortunately your first post on the subject is not overly clear. You say she was laying rubber eggs earlier in the summer..... what do you mean by that.... some people consider a shell less egg a rubber egg, others consider a lash egg to be a rubber egg. If it was a lash egg, then that would indicate that she has salpingitis and if it is now restricting her digestive tract and causing her crop to be slow/impacted, there may unfortunately be little hope. If they were just shell less eggs then that is less of a worry as sometimes this happens towards the end of a hens cycle as she approaches moult and her body's nutrients are becoming depleted. Abdominal swelling would suggest salpingitis. Check the area around her vent and between her legs and compare with your other hens to get an idea of any abnormal swelling in those area.
If it is not a reproductive issue (salpingitis or internal laying or EYP) that is causing her slow crop, then I would look towards it probably being an impaction. I appreciate that you do not feel able to do surgery, but if there is fibrous material in there that is all matted up into a big soggy tangle, then it may not be possible for it to break up or be regurgitated or go down through her system before she starves to death. And in fact that fibrous material passing into her gizzard as one mass will clog her up completely and kill her. Also, giving her a wormer will not help, if her crop is impacted, even if she has worms, as the chemicals will not easily progress through her system to kill the worms.

ACS will treat sour crop which is a yeast overgrowth, but it will do nothing for an impaction and after 7 days, I would have expected it to clear a sour crop, so it sounds like you can probably rule that out.

So, the options we have are that there is something further down her digestive tract backing her up..... reproductive tract issue or tumour (usually some swelling would be noticeable) or possibly worms (a faecal sample can be examined by a vet or laboratory for worm eggs called a faecal float or worm egg count) ........
or ..... she has an impacted crop that is not responding to stool softener or palpitation and needs to be physically removed.
If she has lost as much weight as you say, then time is running out. Please get back to us with results of physical examination of abdomen and vent, and more information on those "rubber eggs", so that we can try to narrow things down a bit. Also, you mention using Strike III. When was that and for how long were they treated?.... that might rule out worms.

Ok, right off, I don't yet know how to navigate around here and where to insert the cursor for my reply. But here goes.

Hello, and thank you so much for your post. Sorry, I've never used an online site before, at least where I posted or replies to a post (really)! So, this is all strange to me. I did leave 2 updates: a pic, and one brief update prior to posting a new thread. Again, sorry, in that my original post was not overly clear. According to my knowledge and memory, I gave what I thought would be enough.

Yes, rubbery type substances found in nesting box after she came out. Size of about 1"x3/4"X1/2". During that period I was observing her nesting habits. For the history: Early on I caught site of her with yellow on her beak area, so obviously she had just eaten whatever she laid then. And after that there were 3-4 occasions when I found evidence of runny yolk in the neating material. I don't know if these were shell less eggs or what, as by the time I got to the coop from a window inside my house, that's what was left. I assume she'd eaten it. After that, she began laying those small rubber things. There were several of these, and since then she has not had any eggs. and I looked at forum posts during that same timeframe and saw that other people were dealing with 'rubbery' things. I thought I'd find a pic on my phone, but it's not there.

'Lash egg' I'm not familar with and don't recall reading about it here before now.

Exam today: her abdomen is not swollen, nor anything unusual between the legs or vent area which is of normal color and size. She does need another epsom bath. I examined her sister for comparison and a RIR also. Both heavier, more solid feel overall, no swelling of abdomen, between legs or vent area. Both laying now, although here sister much less frequently. Except for wt. I could not tell a difference.
For the crop, I just assumed a doughy crop (only sour smell at first) would be impacted. It never did feel like it had a fibrous material in there, just doughy, then with massages/oil & water, I could feel those small seeds - probably were hosta seeds. I suppose one or more of those could cause a blockage.
Wormer: not on hand anyway, but I was thinking that If worms were present, and the Strike III perhaps didn't get it all (2/3 of the way with a 50 day treatment) and she still had almost consistently irregular poop. I admit I should have taken a sample to the vet. and. I was remiss in not noticing the crop sooner.
Should the doughy, yeasty crop have emptied by now on the ACS. This definitely means an obstruction? If only I could rely on assistance from my family who actually own the hens, the idea of surgery might be considered. Alone - no way. Thank you & I'll try to answer whatever else I can.

 

[Kiki]

Lash Egg:
https://timbercreekfarmer.com/what-is-a-lash-egg-salpingitis-in-laying-hens/

This may help you to understand things better too:
Internal Laying & Other Reproductive Malfunctions: my YouTube Video (GRAPHIC PHOTOS!)

This video will help you learn how to navigate this site:

 

[rebrascora]

Thanks Kiki for the lash egg link

@Gayle R463 I'm still not entirely sure if your hen was laying shell less eggs or lash eggs. If you google images of lash eggs, hopefully you will be able to clarify. The fact that your hen was eating them and had yellow on her beak suggests soft shelled or shell less eggs. Lash eggs are rubbery and look like layers of cooked egg and sausage meat and can be a variety of odd lumpy shapes. They are almost always solid (not runny) when you cut them open and I would not expect you to see yellow on their beak from eating them.
If she has been laying lash eggs, then that would confirm salpingitis and whilst it may respond to antibiotics if you catch it early enough, the likelihood is that there is a mass of egg matter inside her, clogging up her oviduct and probably causing a constriction of her gut, causing things to back up.

There is a common misconception with an impaction that it will feel hard and so far, all the impactions I have dealt with have been soft and pliable (doughy) but not sour crop. I have had to resort to surgery twice and whilst I did it unaided the second time, I very much doubt I would have managed to pull it off without someone to hold the bird the first time, so I can entirely understand your situation. Even with surgery, and I can tell you that my little pullet was far less traumatised by it than I was and made a miraculous recovery, I am starting to wonder if perhaps it is not necessarily the right thing to do. After removing a soft ball sized mass of soggy grass, my little girl went right back to filling herself up with more over the following months and we were then back to square one. Sometimes perhaps we have to overcome our human need to try to fix things and just let nature take it's course.

I'm sorry that I cannot offer anymore advice and just hope that you can make your hen comfortable during her final days.

Sending hugs

Barbara

 

[Kiki]

Thanks Kiki for the lash egg link

@Gayle R463 I'm still not entirely sure if your hen was laying shell less eggs or lash eggs. If you google images of lash eggs, hopefully you will be able to clarify. The fact that your hen was eating them and had yellow on her beak suggests soft shelled or shell less eggs. Lash eggs are rubbery and look like layers of cooked egg and sausage meat and can be a variety of odd lumpy shapes. They are almost always solid (not runny) when you cut them open and I would not expect you to see yellow on their beak from eating them.
If she has been laying lash eggs, then that would confirm salpingitis and whilst it may respond to antibiotics if you catch it early enough, the likelihood is that there is a mass of egg matter inside her, clogging up her oviduct and probably causing a constriction of her gut, causing things to back up.

There is a common misconception with an impaction that it will feel hard and so far, all the impactions I have dealt with have been soft and pliable (doughy) but not sour crop. I have had to resort to surgery twice and whilst I did it unaided the second time, I very much doubt I would have managed to pull it off without someone to hold the bird the first time, so I can entirely understand your situation. Even with surgery, and I can tell you that my little pullet was far less traumatised by it than I was and made a miraculous recovery, I am starting to wonder if perhaps it is not necessarily the right thing to do. After removing a soft ball sized mass of soggy grass, my little girl went right back to filling herself up with more over the following months and we were then back to square one. Sometimes perhaps we have to overcome our human need to try to fix things and just let nature take it's course.

I'm sorry that I cannot offer anymore advice and just hope that you can make your hen comfortable during her final days.

Sending hugs

Barbara

These 2 sentences:

After that, she began laying those small rubber things. There were several of these, and since then she has not had any eggs.