URGENT! Chicken layer feed has "dead animal bodies" in it?

[schellie69]

Like I said just because the same people picking up animals from these places I can tell you they have different rules for dealing with them. I do not believe that dogs or cats go into any kind of feed. I think that their are laws that forbid that just like the new rules that talked about cattle that could not get up or stand are no longer allowed. Laws change all the time and the FDA rules change year to year. So I am sure that there is new information it just not be on the internet.

 

[AquaEyes]

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OK, then find me one that's more up to date which refutes it. Thus far, I'm the only one in this thread who has posted ANYTHING that lists a credible source. Are you saying that because of mass public outcry, the industry has changed in the last six or seven years and has stopped this long-time practice? If that was the case, my google-searching for documents would have found a more recent source than the one I posted.

The OP posted learning that dogs and cats from shelters wind up in animal feed from an ad, and wanted to know if it was true. People here said "nah" but had no proof. I posted proof that, according to the law, animal shelters are an acceptable source of protein for animal feed. Anything from the sources mentioned in that document can, after rendering, be listed as "meat and bone meal" on an ingredient list for animal feed. These are facts. How you choose to use them are up to you. But don't say that because you don't like the idea, somehow these facts must not be true.



~Chris

I know the rendering plant that operates in our area has changed their rules on how and what they will pick up and it's because of changes in government rules in the last few years....so yes I do believe a lot has changed since 2004.

Do you have any agricultural background at all? Or is everything you believe based solely on what you've read on the internet?

I have not had livestock of my own, but I learned quite a bit at Cornell University School of Agriculture and Life Science as an Animal Science major. Perhaps you've heard of them?

 

[schellie69]

Quote:
I know the rendering plant that operates in our area has changed their rules on how and what they will pick up and it's because of changes in government rules in the last few years....so yes I do believe a lot has changed since 2004.

Do you have any agricultural background at all? Or is everything you believe based solely on what you've read on the internet?

I have not had livestock of my own, but I learned quite a bit at Cornell University School of Agriculture and Life Science as an Animal Science major. Perhaps you've heard of them?

I am sorry but book learning and running a farm or not the same at all. I grew up on a farm my grand parents owned a farm which is now ran by my uncle trust me when I say there are all kind of rules that you have to know when selling crops and animals my uncle has to check every 3 months just to make sure things have not changed. I agree with Katy that I believe things have changed.

 

[AquaEyes]

Quote:
I have not had livestock of my own, but I learned quite a bit at Cornell University School of Agriculture and Life Science as an Animal Science major. Perhaps you've heard of them?

I am sorry but book learning and running a farm or not the same at all. I grew up on a farm my grand parents owned a farm which is now ran by my uncle trust me when I say there are all kind of rules that you have to know when selling crops and animals my uncle has to check every 3 months just to make sure things have not changed. I agree with Katy that I believe things have changed.

True, book-learning and running a farm are not the same. That's why each class in animal husbandry had lab sessions where we attended working farms that were adjunct to the campus (swine, sheep, beef cattle, dairy cattle, and chicken). But that's besides the point of the OP. Through my "book learning" is how I learned about what's allowed and what's not allowed. You, yourself, may go above and beyond the minimum required by law, but you are not everyone. You say you believe the laws have changed....and that belief is enough for you. Perhaps the law has changed in your local area for what can be accepted by your local rendering plant -- I don't know, because no one is providing evidence (just "belief"). Has the federal regulation changed? If not, then while the rendering plant near you may no longer accept animals from shelters, the one in the next state will, and in the end, it all ends up in animal feed just the same. If you don't want your animals eating it, don't buy feed with animal protein not listed by species (such as the mysterious "meat and bone meal"). If you don't care, then don't worry.

Back to the OP, which stated a fear about pets ending up in animal feed -- people refuted the idea, with no proof. I claimed that yes, pets are allowed to be used in animal feed, and provided proof. Now I hear "well, you're not a farmer, so what do you know?" and "I believe the laws have changed, but I have no proof."

First of all, being a farmer or not has nothing to do with whether pets are allowed to be used in animal feed. Saying I'm wrong about this topic because I'm not a farmer is employing a red herring fallacy -- the two have nothing to do with one another.

Second, if up until as recently as 2004 (the date of the document I provided, which also mentions BSE, so is not older than that concern), the laws allowed for euthanized pets to be used in animal feed, then there would be some documentation or news of a change in regulation if it is now not allowed. I still contend that it is allowed, and until someone here provides evidence that the law has changed, it will remain so in my mind. If you choose to believe that it doesn't happen, so be it. I prefer to live in reality.

 

[AquaEyes]

To the OP:

I have looked through the internet for as many brands of poultry feed as I could find, and looked at ingredients. There are a great many available that don't have any animal protein of any kind listed, so it shouldn't be hard to find them if that's what you choose to feed. If you are concerned about pets ending up in animal feed, you have a great deal of choices available that would eliminate this worry. Be informed, read labels, and use your dollar to cast your vote.



~Chris

 

[Katy]

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LOL...you don't even want to get me started on book learning vs hands on experience.......

It would seem that from your introduction you admit to being a city-boy with no experience.
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Don't get me wrong, you can learn how to have your flock of chickens.....and there are a lot of us here who will be glad to help you learn, but if you think you've got a clue about agriculture and how it works in every day life from a few college courses you are delusional.

Some of the most school educated people I've met have been the dumbest when it comes to surviving in real life.

 

[Katy]

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You're right it doesn't....but you were referring to how cattle in CAFOs are handled and fed which does relate to farming so I was wondering about your first hand experience with them.

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Sorry but that is hardly having experience with farms....anymore than me attending a French cooking class makes me a world class French chef.

 

[schellie69]

Quote:
I am sorry but book learning and running a farm or not the same at all. I grew up on a farm my grand parents owned a farm which is now ran by my uncle trust me when I say there are all kind of rules that you have to know when selling crops and animals my uncle has to check every 3 months just to make sure things have not changed. I agree with Katy that I believe things have changed.

True, book-learning and running a farm are not the same. That's why each class in animal husbandry had lab sessions where we attended working farms that were adjunct to the campus (swine, sheep, beef cattle, dairy cattle, and chicken). But that's besides the point of the OP. Through my "book learning" is how I learned about what's allowed and what's not allowed. You, yourself, may go above and beyond the minimum required by law, but you are not everyone. You say you believe the laws have changed....and that belief is enough for you. Perhaps the law has changed in your local area for what can be accepted by your local rendering plant -- I don't know, because no one is providing evidence (just "belief"). Has the federal regulation changed? If not, then while the rendering plant near you may no longer accept animals from shelters, the one in the next state will, and in the end, it all ends up in animal feed just the same. If you don't want your animals eating it, don't buy feed with animal protein not listed by species (such as the mysterious "meat and bone meal"). If you don't care, then don't worry.

Back to the OP, which stated a fear about pets ending up in animal feed -- people refuted the idea, with no proof. I claimed that yes, pets are allowed to be used in animal feed, and provided proof. Now I hear "well, you're not a farmer, so what do you know?" and "I believe the laws have changed, but I have no proof."

First of all, being a farmer or not has nothing to do with whether pets are allowed to be used in animal feed. Saying I'm wrong about this topic because I'm not a farmer is employing a red herring fallacy -- the two have nothing to do with one another.

Second, if up until as recently as 2004 (the date of the document I provided, which also mentions BSE, so is not older than that concern), the laws allowed for euthanized pets to be used in animal feed, then there would be some documentation or news of a change in regulation if it is now not allowed. I still contend that it is allowed, and until someone here provides evidence that the law has changed, it will remain so in my mind. If you choose to believe that it doesn't happen, so be it. I prefer to live in reality.

Fine you believe what you want I will believe what I want. I Do not believe that pets are used in animal feed. I did not go to fancy collage, But I have lived on a farm and grew up around farm county. Just going to a farm for a few hours does not give you the real chance to be part of farm life live on a farm a few years then we shall see. Reading is great but there are a lot of things to learn that you can not from reading. Have you ever been to a processing plant, or a plant that makes feed. Have you talked to people in the business. Have you done any research that does not mean sitting in front of the computer reading. What did the farms you went to use for feed, did you talk to them about what went into it, did they know or care. There is so much more to learn then just books.

 

[AquaEyes]

I'm going to make this (relatively) short and sweet.

Yep, I'm a city boy, so I came here to learn about chicken husbandry. That doesn't mean that I know nothing about anything else. What is and isn't allowed into a rendering plant is NOT learned on a farm, it's learned by reading LAWS. Thus my level of experience has no bearing on answering the question "do pet dogs and cats end up in animal feed?" especially considering that I posted a congressional document stating that it IS allowable. If something is allowable, I assume it happens, unless something else states otherwise. If an ingredient called "meat and bone meal" exists on my animal feed, I assume that there could be dog and cat in there, unless the bag says "no dog or cat products."

If you are happy feeding this to your chickens, that's great. And, apparently, the OP had some misgivings about it, to the point that she stopped feeding her food. I don't know what she was feeding, but having looked around, it's easy to find chicken feed without animal products or "mystery meat" sources. But that wasn't my point.

I posted here because (if you look back, you'll find them) people were saying something never happens, and I knew otherwise. My knowledge ON THIS POINT did not require farm experience. Trying to paint me as "delusional" ON THIS POINT because of a lack of experience on a farm is completely illogical.

People in this thread said that dogs and cats don't end up in animal feed. They said so with no proof. I disagreed. I provided proof. And yet, still, people here say it doesn't happen. Now THAT is delusional.

If you say "ok, it happens, but I don't care" then that's something totally different, and I respect your opinion. If you say "it doesn't matter if chickens eat this or that" then I say "you know better, you've had them and I haven't." Personally, I have my own opinions about what I or my animals eat, but that's not the point.



~Christopher

 

[Happy Chooks]

Thanks for your participation.