Vaccinate or Not

[Jenny Loves Chickies]

I am glad to hear your flock is doing well now.

Thank you so much!!! This site and the wonderfully wise and caring people here was the only thing that made me feel better during those dark days, I’m so grateful for a healthy flock

 

[LilyD]

Okay I think I am ready to weigh in. The funny thing is I just made a thread asking about Mareks too. I had a hen who had a limp and she was right around the age that it could have been Mareks. I brought her inside as soon as I noticed and kept her separate feeding her after the other birds while I watched her and she gradually got worse.

I did end up sending her for testing (which VT doesn't have a diagnostic vet in the state so we have to send our birds to UNH a bit of a hike but only about 3 hours. Cost me around $120 to find out that my initial though that it was an injury was correct and she had no Mareks.

Even though we were in the clear I have noticed that everyone in the state seems to be over the moon afraid and every little thing that causes chickens to be sick is not Mareks. I have also started to hear from some that they will no ONLY offer vaccinated chicks and adult birds. I began to question my resolve to breed for resistance to illness and injury which has always been my common practice.

This thread has been amazingly helpful to me on top of my reading and I think I have finally come to a decision.

First I will not be vaccinating my birds for Mareks. At present the vaccine isn't reliable enough to make me comfortable exposing my unvaccinated birds to birds that have been vaccinated. The canary in the coal mine is a very apt description. If the vaccinated chicks were to get Mareks and one of the hotter strains but not show any symptoms I could potentially lose all my birds.

Another good reason is that I have people who want to purchase chicks from me every spring locally or adult birds and if I were to vaccinate I would have no way to be able to assure them that my flock was Mareks free. I would feel absolutely horrible if I were to give someone a bird that made theirs sick so I will stay unvaccinated for that reason.

I will continue my normal biosecurity. Wearing one pair of boots only in the yard and another pair of shoes when away from home. Always making sure to wash and change clothes before coming in contact with my birds when I get home. This is a given I have an immuno-compromised son so this is second nature. I come home I wash and disinfect before he might come downstairs to be exposed to anything. Babies kept separate but allowed access to natural earth so they can get immunities from the soil that the other birds have been near. Isolate and cull any birds who show any signs of illness and if it is something that looks like it might be a problem get a necropy done at UNH. Another thing I do is that I will bring in hatching eggs only no baby chicks or older birds. Any hatching eggs I get are disinfected before being put in the incubator unless I know that they come from someone I am positive is disease free. Chicks are kept inside for the first few weeks then moved to an outside brooder where they have access to the ground and room to get away from each other so they aren't overcrowded.

 

[LilyD]

I do have some questions though. Most of the reading says that the disease can live for 3 weeks to up to 3 years at an acclimate temperature (68-70ish) so would it be then unable to live as long in an area that experiences extreme cold? Where I am we get to as low as -40 at times in the winter.

Also I am a little confused on the strains and how many and how virulent they are? I read one article that said there are 4 main strains that range from mild to hot, mild being where you will only lose approximately 50% of your birds and hot where you can lose 100%. Is that correct?

Also can an unvaccinated bird get better from Mareks and still give it to other birds when they are not symptomatic?

 

[jolenesdad]

Okay I think I am ready to weigh in. The funny thing is I just made a thread asking about Mareks too. I had a hen who had a limp and she was right around the age that it could have been Mareks. I brought her inside as soon as I noticed and kept her separate feeding her after the other birds while I watched her and she gradually got worse.

I did end up sending her for testing (which VT doesn't have a diagnostic vet in the state so we have to send our birds to UNH a bit of a hike but only about 3 hours. Cost me around $120 to find out that my initial though that it was an injury was correct and she had no Mareks.

Even though we were in the clear I have noticed that everyone in the state seems to be over the moon afraid and every little thing that causes chickens to be sick is not Mareks. I have also started to hear from some that they will no ONLY offer vaccinated chicks and adult birds. I began to question my resolve to breed for resistance to illness and injury which has always been my common practice.

This thread has been amazingly helpful to me on top of my reading and I think I have finally come to a decision.

First I will not be vaccinating my birds for Mareks. At present the vaccine isn't reliable enough to make me comfortable exposing my unvaccinated birds to birds that have been vaccinated. The canary in the coal mine is a very apt description. If the vaccinated chicks were to get Mareks and one of the hotter strains but not show any symptoms I could potentially lose all my birds.

Another good reason is that I have people who want to purchase chicks from me every spring locally or adult birds and if I were to vaccinate I would have no way to be able to assure them that my flock was Mareks free. I would feel absolutely horrible if I were to give someone a bird that made theirs sick so I will stay unvaccinated for that reason.

I will continue my normal biosecurity. Wearing one pair of boots only in the yard and another pair of shoes when away from home. Always making sure to wash and change clothes before coming in contact with my birds when I get home. This is a given I have an immuno-compromised son so this is second nature. I come home I wash and disinfect before he might come downstairs to be exposed to anything. Babies kept separate but allowed access to natural earth so they can get immunities from the soil that the other birds have been near. Isolate and cull any birds who show any signs of illness and if it is something that looks like it might be a problem get a necropy done at UNH. Another thing I do is that I will bring in hatching eggs only no baby chicks or older birds. Any hatching eggs I get are disinfected before being put in the incubator unless I know that they come from someone I am positive is disease free. Chicks are kept inside for the first few weeks then moved to an outside brooder where they have access to the ground and room to get away from each other so they aren't overcrowded.

Always good to hear from you!

how does vaccinating mean you could lose the entire flock with a virulent strain? If a virulent strain came in, wouldn’t you lose them anyway? Or you just mean you wouldn’t be aware of what’s happening?
after all our time together last year I didn’t know you had an immune compromised kiddo. How old is he??

I keep a pretty tightly closed flock, although I do sometimes take chicks from a friend and just ordered some from a feed store. I don’t always do as good a job as I should with my clothes after being in public or at the feed store. thanks for the reminders.

 

[LilyD]

Always good to hear from you!

how does vaccinating mean you could lose the entire flock with a virulent strain? If a virulent strain came in, wouldn’t you lose them anyway? Or you just mean you wouldn’t be aware of what’s happening?

If it was a hot strain and I didn't have vaccinated chicks chances are that the bird would die before having enough time to infect the others because I would notice symptoms and be able to quarantine the symptomatic bird and bring in extra precautions to help keep the remaining flock from getting sick. If I have birds that are vaccinated I have potential to not only infect my birds without knowing but also to infect others birds as well.

after all our time together last year I didn’t know you had an immune compromised kiddo. How old is he??

He's 24 this year and doing very well because I'm a big time over protective momma. We had a strep scare earlier where he was exposed to a person who had strep and a pretty bad case but didn't tell him before they got together but for the most part he's a normal kid when he can be lol.

 

[jolenesdad]

If it was a hot strain and I didn't have vaccinated chicks chances are that the bird would die before having enough time to infect the others because I would notice symptoms and be able to quarantine the symptomatic bird and bring in extra precautions to help keep the remaining flock sick. If I have birds that are vaccinated I have potential to not only infect my birds without knowing but also to infect others birds as well.



He's 24 this year and doing very well because I'm a big time over protective momma. We had a strep scare earlier where he was exposed to a person who had strep and a pretty bad case but didn't tell him before they got together but for the most part he's a normal kid when he can be lol.

Makes sense about the virulent strain issues. Thanks for the perspective!

 

[NatJ]

I do have some questions though. Most of the reading says that the disease can live for 3 weeks to up to 3 years at an acclimate temperature (68-70ish) so would it be then unable to live as long in an area that experiences extreme cold? Where I am we get to as low as -40 at times in the winter.

Probably no-one knows for sure, although I agree it would be nice to know!

Based on what happens with other things, it could go either way. Extreme cold either kills things, or preserves them. Humidity level could also make a difference--some things die when they get too dry, others last a long time when dry but die if they get humid and moldy.

If I think as a gardener-- dry and cold is good for most seeds, and keeps them viable for a very long time; but the warmer they are, and the more moist they are, the faster they "die." After the seed has grown into a plant, too cold or too dry will kill it, while warm and moist is generally good.

Some kinds of fish live shorter lives in warm water, longer lives in colder water, because their metabolism speeds up or slows down according to the temperature (so they die of "old age" in a different number of years: for guppies the range is something like 3 months at 100 degrees, 5 years at 70 degrees.)

Of course a virus isn't exactly the same as a seed or a plant or a fish, and it's not even exactly the same as another virus, so we're stuck with the experiments that have been run, plus guessing.

But I wouldn't be confident guessing either way, whether the cold makes the virus live a shorter or longer time.

 

[LilyD]

Probably no-one knows for sure, although I agree it would be nice to know!

Based on what happens with other things, it could go either way. Extreme cold either kills things, or preserves them. Humidity level could also make a difference--some things die when they get too dry, others last a long time when dry but die if they get humid and moldy.

If I think as a gardener-- dry and cold is good for most seeds, and keeps them viable for a very long time; but the warmer they are, and the more moist they are, the faster they "die." After the seed has grown into a plant, too cold or too dry will kill it, while warm and moist is generally good.

Some kinds of fish live shorter lives in warm water, longer lives in colder water, because their metabolism speeds up or slows down according to the temperature (so they die of "old age" in a different number of years: for guppies the range is something like 3 months at 100 degrees, 5 years at 70 degrees.)

Of course a virus isn't exactly the same as a seed or a plant or a fish, and it's not even exactly the same as another virus, so we're stuck with the experiments that have been run, plus guessing.

But I wouldn't be confident guessing either way, whether the cold makes the virus live a shorter or longer time.

Oh definitely not I just wasn't sure if someone had read something I missed. I live in VT we get very cold and very dry (even though we get a lot of snow) during the winter. The air is dry and causes static shocks and we have to actually add moisture to the inside air in our house because it falls below 10% humidity. All the articles I read just kept saying that one phrase I wasn't sure if there was something I missed one way or the other in my reading.

 

[sdm111]

If it was a hot strain and I didn't have vaccinated chicks chances are that the bird would die before having enough time to infect the others because I would notice symptoms and be able to quarantine the symptomatic bird and bring in extra precautions to help keep the remaining flock from getting sick. If I have birds that are vaccinated I have potential to not only infect my birds without knowing but also to infect others birds as well.



He's 24 this year and doing very well because I'm a big time over protective momma. We had a strep scare earlier where he was exposed to a person who had strep and a pretty bad case but didn't tell him before they got together but for the most part he's a normal kid when he can be lol.

Being airborne via feather dander I wouldn't put too much weight on being able to get the dead bird away before it infects others

 

[Abriana]

I don’t vaccinate, I have never had an issue with contagious/deadly disease (been keeping chickens for 3 or 4 years) and my flock is pretty small (currently 13 birds). I don’t have any special reason why not, just that I was naive when I first started and didn’t even know that was thing and when I did know I didn’t see any reason to vaccinate. Except for the occasion issue (usually pretty treatable) my flock has been healthy and thriving!