- Thread starter
- #11
That sounds perfect. How many will you be vaccinating? My wife and I do it together to get as many as we can done in that hour.
The vaccine should be good after 10 days in their systems.
Vaccinating for Marek's
- Thread starter duluthralphie
- Start date
That sounds perfect. How many will you be vaccinating? My wife and I do it together to get as many as we can done in that hour.
The vaccine should be good after 10 days in their systems.
If all hatch there will be 14, so the timeline should work. My wife and I will team up. I used to work in a lab at the Houston Zoo and have injected small mammals, reptiles, even fish before, just not newly hatched chicks. We have also handled a lot of small and baby wild birds while netting and banding them during migration and nesting season. We will be mindful of the thinner skin of the chicks. This is a new chapter in chicken rearing for us. The BYC community has been a tremendous resource over the years. Thanks!
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If the chicks hatching are from your birds and you keep a closed flock, it may be unnecessary. You know Marek's has been in your flock and the rest of your birds are resistant. Breeding for resistance is another option some may choose.
Good point, I have been thinking about that. We also have a large flock of resident wild turkey that are frequently near the flock, which I have read may eventually help with resistance. I hadn't thought about breeding and expanding from only within the flock until this Marek's outbreak. Now we are thinking in that direction.
I have been dealing with Marek's in my flock for over a year now.I am dealing with a strain with a high initial mortality rate and began loosing birds at a rate of one to two a week since fall of 2016. Last death was last June.
I am now starting to see resistant birds emerging from my flock, including birds I hatched from local (within 3 miles of me)eggs from flocks of bantam mixed birds. These birds are showing resistance to initial infection or exposure. Compared to over 15 large sized Buff O's and Welsummers that I have lost, I have only lost 3 locally produced birds which makes me think that the strain of Marek's I am dealing with is endemic to this area and local flocks have developed resistance.
At this time I have three birds with Ocular Marek's but I have lost birds to classic Marek's paralysis, respiratory/cardiac failure and neurological symptoms. The oldest bird to succumb was just barely 2 years old. The youngest, 9 weeks.
I have closed my flock and am currently introducing vaccinated birds to breed with my surviving resistant flock of bantam mixes. Due to their morbidity, I am not breeding my 3 year old surviving Buff O's or Welsummers. I am breeding my bantam crosses from local stock for resistance.
What I'm wondering is how you are discerning which viral strain of Marek's you are dealing with in your flock. Have you checked with the local home extension office to find out which strain you are dealing with or did you have birds necropsied to identify the Marek's strain so you could vaccinate your chicks with the correct serum?
That is my big obstacle with vaccinating. How do I know that if I vaccinate with the available serum, it is going to protect my birds from whatever strain of Marek's is prevalent in my area?
I am now starting to see resistant birds emerging from my flock, including birds I hatched from local (within 3 miles of me)eggs from flocks of bantam mixed birds. These birds are showing resistance to initial infection or exposure. Compared to over 15 large sized Buff O's and Welsummers that I have lost, I have only lost 3 locally produced birds which makes me think that the strain of Marek's I am dealing with is endemic to this area and local flocks have developed resistance.
At this time I have three birds with Ocular Marek's but I have lost birds to classic Marek's paralysis, respiratory/cardiac failure and neurological symptoms. The oldest bird to succumb was just barely 2 years old. The youngest, 9 weeks.
I have closed my flock and am currently introducing vaccinated birds to breed with my surviving resistant flock of bantam mixes. Due to their morbidity, I am not breeding my 3 year old surviving Buff O's or Welsummers. I am breeding my bantam crosses from local stock for resistance.
What I'm wondering is how you are discerning which viral strain of Marek's you are dealing with in your flock. Have you checked with the local home extension office to find out which strain you are dealing with or did you have birds necropsied to identify the Marek's strain so you could vaccinate your chicks with the correct serum?
That is my big obstacle with vaccinating. How do I know that if I vaccinate with the available serum, it is going to protect my birds from whatever strain of Marek's is prevalent in my area?
- Thread starter
- #16
I have to correct some things I have read in the last few posts.
I ask you to re-read my first OP post.
Circa 1904 Marek's was discovered (it had most likely been around before that just not "discovered").
Since that time people have been trying to "breed for Marek resistance". It has failed miserably. Many times when people say their flock is resistant, it is not. The virus is simply lying in wait to be activated again. Breeding for resistance will give you very limited results.
Since 1904 Marek's has mutated into 4-6 strains. These strains are all affected by the same vaccine. There is no vaccine for any individual strain. In fact the vaccine used is actually for a closely related herpes virus from Turkeys.
The myth turkeys will help prevent Marek's is just that. The State Vet here strongly disagrees with that. I know there is a New Hampshire ag department saying turkeys might help. All this proves is government employees will say anything to sound knowledgeable regardless of how wrong they are.
I have had turkeys for years. It has not exempted me from any deaths. Last fall was the first batch of chicks I vaccinated. I had tried the resistance route. I was losing too many birds to continue it.
I assume the turkey myth comes about because of the vaccine being a live turkey herpes virus. I am not saying it might not work if your turkeys have the herpes virus. However, even at that the live virus must somehow get into a chick before the Marek's virus does. This is simply not possible in nature. It has to be injected into the chick. Even injected the vaccine needs ~10 days before it is effective. During the time you are waiting for the live turkey virus to find it's way into a species it has not evolved to attack, the Marek's virus will have a foothold and any vaccinating benefits would be negated.
Very seldom will a 2 year old bird or 4 week old chick die from Marek's. They are normally 10-12 weeks or more and under a year.
Unless you had a necropsy performed by a vet or at the very least someone trained by a vet to diagnose Marek's you cannot say for sure the bird died of Mareks. There is only one of the four strains a person can halfways diagnose on a living infected bird.
The bio-security required to stop the spread of marek's is not possible in most backyard or small flocks. You would need a shower in and shower out facility. The birds would need to have filtered air from the outside and never come in contact with any wild bird droppings.
Marek's is everywhere. It is transmitted by wild birds, by the wind, on rain drops that formed on a dust particle containing the virus.
The real miracle is there are not more birds dying of Mareks.
I ask you to re-read my first OP post.
Circa 1904 Marek's was discovered (it had most likely been around before that just not "discovered").
Since that time people have been trying to "breed for Marek resistance". It has failed miserably. Many times when people say their flock is resistant, it is not. The virus is simply lying in wait to be activated again. Breeding for resistance will give you very limited results.
Since 1904 Marek's has mutated into 4-6 strains. These strains are all affected by the same vaccine. There is no vaccine for any individual strain. In fact the vaccine used is actually for a closely related herpes virus from Turkeys.
The myth turkeys will help prevent Marek's is just that. The State Vet here strongly disagrees with that. I know there is a New Hampshire ag department saying turkeys might help. All this proves is government employees will say anything to sound knowledgeable regardless of how wrong they are.
I have had turkeys for years. It has not exempted me from any deaths. Last fall was the first batch of chicks I vaccinated. I had tried the resistance route. I was losing too many birds to continue it.
I assume the turkey myth comes about because of the vaccine being a live turkey herpes virus. I am not saying it might not work if your turkeys have the herpes virus. However, even at that the live virus must somehow get into a chick before the Marek's virus does. This is simply not possible in nature. It has to be injected into the chick. Even injected the vaccine needs ~10 days before it is effective. During the time you are waiting for the live turkey virus to find it's way into a species it has not evolved to attack, the Marek's virus will have a foothold and any vaccinating benefits would be negated.
Very seldom will a 2 year old bird or 4 week old chick die from Marek's. They are normally 10-12 weeks or more and under a year.
Unless you had a necropsy performed by a vet or at the very least someone trained by a vet to diagnose Marek's you cannot say for sure the bird died of Mareks. There is only one of the four strains a person can halfways diagnose on a living infected bird.
The bio-security required to stop the spread of marek's is not possible in most backyard or small flocks. You would need a shower in and shower out facility. The birds would need to have filtered air from the outside and never come in contact with any wild bird droppings.
Marek's is everywhere. It is transmitted by wild birds, by the wind, on rain drops that formed on a dust particle containing the virus.
The real miracle is there are not more birds dying of Mareks.
Good information @duluthralphie. Thank you for posting that clarification.
What puzzles me is the fact that I purchased 18 birds (chicks) from an NPIP breeder who assured me when questioned that I need not bother with Marek's vaccine because she did not vaccinate and was at the time breeding for resistance.
Out of those 18 chicks, I lost all the roosters to breeding stress that activated the disease and lost the majority of the second generation of birds that those original 18 birds produced.
I currently have three birds, 2 are second generation birds, 1 hen is a first generation that have confirmed Ocular Marek's disease. Of the surviving birds, which are now over 3 years old and all hens with the exception of three cockerels which are second generation birds, I have birds that are showing problems such as failure to gain weight, and crop problems. But according to the vet that I have had contact with at the University of Missouri at Columbia, 3 to 4 year old birds are in the category of being considered resistant to the disease.
How can you explain the observation that the local flocks seem to have a higher survival rate and higher resistance to the disease than the birds produced from 'resistant' birds bought from a certified breeder?
Granted that in order for a bird to be resistant, it has to be exposed to the virus, but that is what puzzles me the most. My original birds were purchased within a 50 mile radius of our farm. The local birds within 3 miles yet the local birds so far (the first 4 hatched, 3 survived to be 2 years old this spring. One died sudden death at less than a year) None show signs of ocular Marek's from that group of birds and I have lost one 9 week old to classic Marek's scissor splits. Right now I have 60 birds, almost 40 of them being local bantam crosses. They appear to be hardy little birds, a distinct difference from my older birds which have been hit hard by the disease.
Wouldn't that indicate that there are two different strains at least of the the disease operating in the area and that the local birds from large flocks have indeed developed a resistance to them?
Trust me, I have thrown the book at these birds trying to see if they will survive whatever but is on our property. They have been exposed to breeding stress, which seems to be the trigger for the activation of the disease in my flock with no birds succumbing. Meanwhile I continue to watch the original flock have problems that I have to deal with like putting out brush fires on a continuing basis.
The local stock is flooding me with eggs, the original flock has had reduced production for over two years.
I don't claim to have any answers. Like everyone else, just questions. I know it has been a painful experience just as yours to watch birds die, or be forced to put birds down.
Right now I am faced with the problem of how to dispose of extra cockerels. I want to butcher them, don't really want to do it myself but getting it done is the problem. With a closed flock , I can't safely take them off the property (that is a bewildering thing to me. If Marek's is everywhere, then does having a closed flock do any good when it comes to not spreading the disease? Afterall, air movement and insects carry the disease everywhere, including wild birds) And even bringing somebody in to butcher for me creates it's own set of problems because they will be taking the virus off the premises with them. All I know at this point in time, I have 10 roosters that need to go to freezer camp in 3 weeks just how to get them there is the challenge.
When all is said and done, Marek's is a destroyer of dreams, plans and flocks.
What puzzles me is the fact that I purchased 18 birds (chicks) from an NPIP breeder who assured me when questioned that I need not bother with Marek's vaccine because she did not vaccinate and was at the time breeding for resistance.
Out of those 18 chicks, I lost all the roosters to breeding stress that activated the disease and lost the majority of the second generation of birds that those original 18 birds produced.
I currently have three birds, 2 are second generation birds, 1 hen is a first generation that have confirmed Ocular Marek's disease. Of the surviving birds, which are now over 3 years old and all hens with the exception of three cockerels which are second generation birds, I have birds that are showing problems such as failure to gain weight, and crop problems. But according to the vet that I have had contact with at the University of Missouri at Columbia, 3 to 4 year old birds are in the category of being considered resistant to the disease.
How can you explain the observation that the local flocks seem to have a higher survival rate and higher resistance to the disease than the birds produced from 'resistant' birds bought from a certified breeder?
Granted that in order for a bird to be resistant, it has to be exposed to the virus, but that is what puzzles me the most. My original birds were purchased within a 50 mile radius of our farm. The local birds within 3 miles yet the local birds so far (the first 4 hatched, 3 survived to be 2 years old this spring. One died sudden death at less than a year) None show signs of ocular Marek's from that group of birds and I have lost one 9 week old to classic Marek's scissor splits. Right now I have 60 birds, almost 40 of them being local bantam crosses. They appear to be hardy little birds, a distinct difference from my older birds which have been hit hard by the disease.
Wouldn't that indicate that there are two different strains at least of the the disease operating in the area and that the local birds from large flocks have indeed developed a resistance to them?
Trust me, I have thrown the book at these birds trying to see if they will survive whatever but is on our property. They have been exposed to breeding stress, which seems to be the trigger for the activation of the disease in my flock with no birds succumbing. Meanwhile I continue to watch the original flock have problems that I have to deal with like putting out brush fires on a continuing basis.
The local stock is flooding me with eggs, the original flock has had reduced production for over two years.
I don't claim to have any answers. Like everyone else, just questions. I know it has been a painful experience just as yours to watch birds die, or be forced to put birds down.
Right now I am faced with the problem of how to dispose of extra cockerels. I want to butcher them, don't really want to do it myself but getting it done is the problem. With a closed flock , I can't safely take them off the property (that is a bewildering thing to me. If Marek's is everywhere, then does having a closed flock do any good when it comes to not spreading the disease? Afterall, air movement and insects carry the disease everywhere, including wild birds) And even bringing somebody in to butcher for me creates it's own set of problems because they will be taking the virus off the premises with them. All I know at this point in time, I have 10 roosters that need to go to freezer camp in 3 weeks just how to get them there is the challenge.
When all is said and done, Marek's is a destroyer of dreams, plans and flocks.
Also what I wanted to add is that I sincerely believe that there are no absolutes to this disease.
While indeed, vaccination may work for some, it is not a realistic venture for everyone, including myself.
There is no way I can isolate chicks from the air that is on our farm. People and pets go in and out all day, and like posted it is impossible to shower and change clothes 20 or
30 times a day.
For some, breeding for resistance even knowing that in doing so you are going to loose some birds in the attempt, is the only way to go. Not even vaccinating is a 100% solution.
Even with good biosecurity, my flock is infected. Like posted. It is everywhere.
While indeed, vaccination may work for some, it is not a realistic venture for everyone, including myself.
There is no way I can isolate chicks from the air that is on our farm. People and pets go in and out all day, and like posted it is impossible to shower and change clothes 20 or
30 times a day.
For some, breeding for resistance even knowing that in doing so you are going to loose some birds in the attempt, is the only way to go. Not even vaccinating is a 100% solution.
Even with good biosecurity, my flock is infected. Like posted. It is everywhere.
- Thread starter
- #19
I am not saying you cannot breed some resistance into a flock. I have found some breeds more susceptible than others that I own.
I think and this is nearing the wives tale category, the time of the year the chicks hatch. The weather, sunny or cloudy at that critical age of under 20 weeks makes a huge difference on whether the bird can defeat Marek's or not.
Even the birds you an I list as resistance are most likely infected and spreading the disease horizontally. (the only way Marek's travels).
I am a "certified" breeder (using your terms) I have an NPIP flock. I have not brought in a non-NPIP bird in years. I have brought in a couple of NPIP birds to help expand my genetics. If you never bring in birds you will have other problems showing up.
I have around 200 adult birds. I am not a small flock. I am not a large flock, I still need the new genetic material now and then.
NPIP does ZERO testing for Marek's. While I have heard of a live test being tried at a university, I do not believe it is in widespread use, and I wonder if it is what use the test would be. The person telling you not to worry about Marek's is misinformed.
I do not know of a "cure". I have tried way too many that have failed. Like you I have watched them die. Marek's is not a disease good bio-security is going to stop. There are a ton that are stopped by bio-security. They are mainly bacterial or in a weaker virus.
I would like you to read this:
https://blogs.unimelb.edu.au/sciencecommunication/2010/11/07/everyone-has-a-herpes-virus/
It does not deal with chickens but humans, read how the virus can hide and reactivate.
It could very well be the chickens that died had just meet a herpes virus that was slightly different or altered from the one you had, and the number of virus lying around your property were too highly concentrated for them.
Marek's is Russian roulette. I played it for years with no problems until it was a problem. It is cheaper for me to vaccinate then feed birds and watch them die.
In addition because Murphy hates me I succumb to his or her law. The chances of a bird dying are inversely proportionate to the amount of desire I have for that bird to mature. So the better looking the bird is and the more I think it will win at the shows, the higher the chance it will die.
I try to not put a lot of stock into casual observations regarding which bird lives or dies with Marek's anymore. Casual observations are what cause bad science and a bureaucrat publishing an official government handout that says "Turkeys will help protect your flock from Marek's"....completely ignoring the other problems chickens and turkeys raised together have..
I know as I keep my turkeys with my chickens 95% of the time. I have to keep a close watch on the other problems because of it...
Good luck. The worst thing I have around here is trying to find a Marek's vaccine. It is only 20 bucks for 1000 doses, the smallest size bottle available. but shipping costs nearly 20 bucks as I have to order it and cannot buy it off the shelf.
I think and this is nearing the wives tale category, the time of the year the chicks hatch. The weather, sunny or cloudy at that critical age of under 20 weeks makes a huge difference on whether the bird can defeat Marek's or not.
Even the birds you an I list as resistance are most likely infected and spreading the disease horizontally. (the only way Marek's travels).
I am a "certified" breeder (using your terms) I have an NPIP flock. I have not brought in a non-NPIP bird in years. I have brought in a couple of NPIP birds to help expand my genetics. If you never bring in birds you will have other problems showing up.
I have around 200 adult birds. I am not a small flock. I am not a large flock, I still need the new genetic material now and then.
NPIP does ZERO testing for Marek's. While I have heard of a live test being tried at a university, I do not believe it is in widespread use, and I wonder if it is what use the test would be. The person telling you not to worry about Marek's is misinformed.
I do not know of a "cure". I have tried way too many that have failed. Like you I have watched them die. Marek's is not a disease good bio-security is going to stop. There are a ton that are stopped by bio-security. They are mainly bacterial or in a weaker virus.
I would like you to read this:
https://blogs.unimelb.edu.au/sciencecommunication/2010/11/07/everyone-has-a-herpes-virus/
It does not deal with chickens but humans, read how the virus can hide and reactivate.
It could very well be the chickens that died had just meet a herpes virus that was slightly different or altered from the one you had, and the number of virus lying around your property were too highly concentrated for them.
Marek's is Russian roulette. I played it for years with no problems until it was a problem. It is cheaper for me to vaccinate then feed birds and watch them die.
In addition because Murphy hates me I succumb to his or her law. The chances of a bird dying are inversely proportionate to the amount of desire I have for that bird to mature. So the better looking the bird is and the more I think it will win at the shows, the higher the chance it will die.
I try to not put a lot of stock into casual observations regarding which bird lives or dies with Marek's anymore. Casual observations are what cause bad science and a bureaucrat publishing an official government handout that says "Turkeys will help protect your flock from Marek's"....completely ignoring the other problems chickens and turkeys raised together have..
I know as I keep my turkeys with my chickens 95% of the time. I have to keep a close watch on the other problems because of it...
Good luck. The worst thing I have around here is trying to find a Marek's vaccine. It is only 20 bucks for 1000 doses, the smallest size bottle available. but shipping costs nearly 20 bucks as I have to order it and cannot buy it off the shelf.
- Thread starter
- #20
The vaccine is not 100% because it is an indirect vaccine. (which is why the wives tale you will spread marek's with a vaccinated bird is so phony)...
I keep my chicks separated for 4-10 days to give the vaccine a head start. I just hope they do not catch enough viruses to hurt them. I am happy with the results so far.
I also am trying something to cut the expense. I am cutting the dry part of the vaccine into 4 pieces and vacuum packing the dry portion (in the bottle) so I can use it for 4 hatches instead of one....THIS IS NOT APPROVED. but I think it is worth a try.
Also why can you not take your birds somewhere to be processed? Bio-security is about birds coming on the property not leaving. I doubt if they would infect the others when they are residing in your freezer...
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