Vacinations- BioSecurity (long rant with opinions wanted!)

[spook]

Quote:
LynneP- oh how I hear you and this is the Norm. But one thing that I was so ignorent to- and many others are too, when we went to help the Poultry Show at one of the fairs here in Maine, I filled the water and food cups of 400 birds. 400. Now looking back, I could have contaminated everyone of those birds, including my own.
Not only that, I questioned why there were several "Commercial" breeds were disqualified...because they are not a pure stock, but also, these birds have been exposed to these virus/infectious diseases. And they are being housed next to Joe Schmoes for a week, only bars between them.
Regardless to what we do, there is no way to prevent show birds from not obtaining disease when exposed to people, their hands, dust and sneezes. The only way to properly handle show birds is to have a house that is spacifically for them, no mingling and you always work on that house last. You still run the risk of contamination and passing things through the eggs.
I will be bringing this up to a 4-H club volenteer at the next poultry meeting in January. Thanks for your input.
The one way for a healthy flock to stay healthy is by sending out your show bird, bringing home only the ribbon. For the health of all your birds, never bring one back that has been exposed to any outside your property air/birds/people.
One of the safest things to do...join in on the BYC Chicken shows! Then you can enjoy the best of both worlds!

 

[LynneP]

I must say that the water situation was handled well at that show. Exhibitors were asked to bring a supply from home, but there were jugs and small bottles of 'spring water' (locally bottled) provided, too. Those bottles were under the cages with the exhibitors' names on them.

Very difficult to ask a 4-H'er to give up a bird so lovingly raised...but yes, those birds need separate accommodations at home, to protect the flock(s).

I guess it's up to us to be role models for biosecurity and to help the participants understand the implications of failing at that! (the hidden show).

 

[spook]

Being quite pleased, I received a reply from the Maine State Vet...I stumped him!

He as well as many people was interested in NAIS which is fine, my choice is no, like so many others of us, yet it is a great tool for following how and where animals go,trade, sell or show. Also causes for a lot of financial messups!
Now the issue that I have is to many questions from the answers I was seeking! When do we expect to have MS/MG and other transmittable diseases/virus'/bacteria etc accounted for. Why should this not be tested! Shouldn't we care about our birds or are they so disposable that we are lazy and don't care.
One of the things that LynnP brought up was handling at shows. Not sure about your area, but our birds are known to be shown at 30-50 shows a summer/fall for those trying to perfect a breed. That is basically in and out of state and most of those people scoff, chickens got a sneeze...they'll come out of it with Terramycin. UGH.

Now recently I read a note on BYC about a person that wanted fertilized eggs, cross the boarder of Maine/Canada, claim to have "eating eggs", go home, incubate chicks with them. At first I honestly thought, why not. Good ride, about 2 1/2-3 hour ride, stop in and see loved ones cemetery plots. Wrong, glad I did not do that! The NPIP tested person (mind you NPIP is only pullorium/Typhoid) seems to have the MS. Or so we think, but not 100% sure either. Now with all that Bio-security and no risk taking that all of our countries are enforcing, look at the possibility that these eggs hatch, suddenly they have MS/MG killing the livestock in a country that uses strict care on everyone's birds. (please someone correct me if I'm wrong!!!!) Well, then we go to the thought of biological warfare. Holy Hannah, did you say? Well I sure did. When you come in to damage anyone's lively hood or to their lives, when its organic (not preservative free, but natural),biologically, when found to have come from my area or myself, that could become a question of the government "what to do with this "biological terrorist"!
Eeek. So now I'm pretty pleased that I did not send eggs to Canada to eat or other wise!
But, instead, I asked the State Vet why it was that these are acceptable health complications and not tested diseases with egg/chick transfers.
Please, I welcome you opinion!

 

[robin416]

First the vaccinating question: mareks is the only virus that flock owners should vaccinate for. The states that do involve themselves more completely on the backyard flocks recommends that you only vaccinate for diseases that are a problem in your area. IE, wet pox in Fl and TX. Its not a problem in my state so no vaccination is recommended. ILT, unless you have an out break in close proximity, do not vaccinate. The current vaccine can cause carriers at the rate of 2% of the flock.

There was an out break of ILT in my state this past year. The state traced it back to a commercial poultry farm. They vaccinated with the eye application method and the belief is that virus was carried off the premises by a worker causing an out break in back yard flocks.

Contaminated Premises: Its untrue that the oganism will always be there when it concerns a virus like ILT. ILT can live in the droppings of an infected bird for 90 days. Removal of bedding and a thorough disenfection of the coop and surrounding pens and ground will kill it. Many of the diseases our birds contract need specific conditions to remain viable once it leaves the bird. Mareks is about the only one I know of that can continue to be a problem.

Testing: Most tests will give a false negative or positive as often as it doesn't. So testing is not a fail safe. Most of our flocks have been exposed to things like MS/MG without there being any active disease or the flock becoming a carrier of the diseases. Since they then possess the antibodies the chances are they will test positive if the test is accurate.

The question of NPIP: In my state those participating in NPIP were notified immediately of the out break of ILT in their area. That gave them the opportunity to lock down until the problem was rectified. For those that did not paricipate they were not notified until the state could physically go door to door to locate backyard flocks.

NAIS: the above paragraph is exactly why its a program that has no benefit to me or other backyarders. As an NPIP participant I was on record for my birds that gave them info should they need to notify me.

I don't have an all in, all out flock. I will do the things necessary to protect my existing birds, including quarantine for anything new with a sacrificial bird as a companion.

And no matter how we wish everyone was honest and didn't spread trouble that will never happen so its better to use caution when purchasing.

 

[spook]

Thank you Robin, very interesting. But when dealing with MS/MG most people do not understand what it is, let alone that their birds have it. It does spread to others and those others do die from it. When you raise show quality birds, then I feel that testing is necessary. If a bird has had MS/MG then they are now carriers- period.
I choose not to show, yet I do not want to get to a show, help out by watering and feeding, while infecting the whole show.

Wish there was an easy answer, but to me, treating the symptoms of these types of disease is not good enough. I feel the quality of the birds that we own, small flock or large flock, people should be aware of what they can get from the soil.

I hope to receive these answers from the Vet, also I hope to shed light on this destructive bacteria. Education is the wisest thing in life, also, for our flocks.

No disrespect intended Robin, I really really appreciate your response, Thank you again.

 

[robin416]

Quote:
None taken. Here's is the conundrum of what you're proposing, if the birds were exposed but never sick and are not carriers they are going to test positive anyway. That would include about 75% of all the flocks in the US. Just like humans our birds can be exposed to contagions but never be sick, their immune systems will successfully fight off the organism. Those are birds I want in my flock. Birds who's immune systems were strong enough to say "no thanks" to giving in to the bug.

Your concern is a flock that was sick but unless you've had constant contact with the breeder you can't possibly know that.

I'll bet if you had the state test your birds some or all will come back positive for either of those diseases.

 

[Wildsky]

Quote:
Kinda sounds like you are.

 

[spook]

Wild Sky, see, I've always agreed with the wait and see with my flock, also have chosen to not breed, sell or add to my flock. Now learning that when you pick up a "battery hen" as some call them, they are already vaccinated and will create health issues in your own flock even tho the quarantined bird is ok, happy and healthy.
I am bringing this subject to the attention to those that don't realize what they can bring home from the feed store etc.
Also, I brought these subjects up to see where and how other people thought about these subjects. Having read so much that can contradict each article, I am looking for the truth. Looking for something better then 'just kill your whole flock'. How many people do you find on this site that come on worried about their poultry because they are wheezing and coughing, told to get Terramycin, and then be told that its not a 'cold', leaving you will huge questions and the what ifs.
What if I bring other poultry in on my property? Do I hatch from the original breeder that I brought the 5 layer hens from, raise them up and go from there? Then of course someone says or they read..."kill your whole flock and start over", I'm crushed.
Why should I kill them off being my pets and then get more that will only turn around and have to be killed off- er- culled.
Perhaps having been inoculated would be the best idea. Perhaps if I tend to my own birds, to heck with your birds, and if yours get within a mile of them, (exaggerating) then its your tough luck.
I am not looking for revenge, but simple information and why. The pros's and con's of us testing, if its affordable and then give shots to those that are going to be in shows as protection of this line.
Doesn't it make you feel good that its spread to 75% as Robin says, and I really feel she is right and the percentages are probably like 90%, but is this acceptable? Passing off healthy birds that are now carriers to certain diseases, to contaminate the remainder of our flock.
Eh, who knows what is right and wrong. I would like the State of Maine, the Veterinarian, do some homework on how we should be treating, using and exposing these birds while a 4-H kid or breeder may loose the one precious bird because they wanted to share it with others.
Oh, and my birds (going into their 2nd year) have MS, I assume. After the holidays these lil girls are going to be tested. My birds are not show birds nor will you be able to hatch from me, but ignorance is not bliss, its known to kill fast and furious.

Again, Robin you make some super points, thank you again, I have another opinion to chew over, and I agree with most of what you are saying, I still wander around wondering why its not even mentioned in the poultry barns/clubs. I still wonder if vaccinating is the route to go and to question.

 

[robin416]

If our birds test positive it didn't necessarily come from poultry, the chance is very high that it was carried in by wild birds.

The biggest concern at shows is someone that has vaccinated for a disease and then brings those birds to a show hall too soon after vaccination. They are considered "hot" and there is a quarantine period involved, some will ignore that quarantine. Some have done what they think is the right thing and vaccinated for ILT and created a carrier but there is no way to know if that bird is a carrier until its been around birds that were not vaccinated. That's why my state says stay away from it.

Battery birds are a risk. They've changed the way they vaccinate to vaccinating the embryo that should eliminate the carrier birds.

The whole thing does frighten me but I won't vaccinate until or unless there is an outbreak in my area. Even then I might just close down and use high bio security routines to protect my birds. If I vaccinate and create a carrier bird and I sell that bird to anyone what do you think would happen to the unvaccinated flock my bird goes to?

 

[spook]

Robin, you are wise. My birds will probably test positive, I have no intent on showing, yet I feel bad for those that have birds that have a low resistance.
Needless to say, I must say I have been enlightened and probably will not vaccinate against these diseases. But I still feel that the NPIP program is doing a poor job, still in the 1930's and its a false sense of security.
Interestingly I will still have the birds tested, for my own curiosity, incourage honest trade and knowing what you are buying for birds. Especially from auctions! They are stressed, weakened immune systems and also someone else's problem they want to get rid of. If you are picking up from a reputible breeder, you still run that problem, they will not sell you what they find great. They sell those that aren't good enough to make the show.
I hope this keeps people thinking. Being aware of what is happening outside their property.