Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[Chicken Heel]

I will address some of the points you made. The calf doesn't care whether or not it has a mother. It cares about whether and when it is getting fed. Male calves are raised for dairy beef or veal. I have seen a lot of cows in the milk string that are far older than four or five. When I was doing DHIA testing I tested one cow that was almost 20. She wasn't milking a lot but she was milking enough to pay for her feed. If the cow was in the wild, chances are she would not make it much past four or five. I am not sure what diseases you are talking about. I will also say that cows on very large dairies are better off than they are in a lot of small ones simply because the accommodations for the cow are better. I am basing that opinion on what I saw when I was doing DHIA testing. I saw a lot of different dairies when I was doing that. Grazing on pasture is overrated. Cows like pasture but they also like comfortable free stalls. Lying in a free stall bedded with a foot of soft sand to chew your cud is a lot more comfortable than lying on the hard ground. I described the relationship between cows and people as being symbiotic. In a symbiotic relationship both sides benefit. Just so you know, if the cow was in the wild with no people around her life would not be all beer and skittles. She would also be pregnant more than if she was in the dairy. Why? Because if she was in the wild the bull would breed her as soon as she came into heat after calving, as soon as thirty days or so. In the dairy, cows are usually not rebred for three months or so. I forget now exactly how long but the object is to give the cow time to recover from calving. You object to the fact that dairy cows end up as meat, but in the wild she would be at the mercy of predators and I can assure you the chances of her dying in her bed of old age are slim and none. The majority of people can digest milk just fine, but it is true some are lactose intolerant. A lot of people who cannot tolerate milk can tolerate cheese. Whether you can digest milk or not depends on genetics. People of northern European extraction can usually drink milk all of their lives while people of Mediterranean or African ancestry cannot tolerate milk but most of them can digest cheese. At least that is what I remember from the genetics class I took years ago.

You are right that we should probably wrap this up. I really enjoyed my years of working on the dairy working with cows. I found the cows to be relaxing to be around. I had a commercial goat dairy for many years also. I loved my goats, but they are anything but relaxing. I admit I am passionate about goats and cows. I loved my goats and I loved my cows. Once I get started on them, as you can see, it is hard to get me to shut up and I am sure I have said far more about them than anyone ever wanted to hear.

I respect your take about the symbiotic relationship between livestock and humans. My Pa Shook who I mentioned earlier in this thread and his Guernsey cow, Pet, and his plow horse gelding, Blackjack, were prime examples for me. I recall him and Blackjack plowing the Burley tobacco fields together and seemingly having a great time doing it. Blackjack must not have been too tired because on a nightly basis, he would jump the fence and carouse around the farm which was located on the top of Beech Mountain, NC. And I remember how a smiling Pa Shook would simply round him up and head back out to the fields the nest morning not really being upset about his escapes. And Pet gave us wonderful milk, cheese and butter while being well taken care of. I clearly remember the day she died and Pa Shook crying about it because at this point in his life she was to be his last cow and that she had been such a sweet ole gal.

 

[Shadrach]

Just a thought for those of you embarked on a healthy lifestyle...

 

[Alagirl]

my mom and I are returning to this conversation on a regular basis:
she raised a boar piglet from orphanhood. The little pig was meant to go live in an animal sanctuary, seeing that she had been by now tamed - a bad idea ot release back into the wild. Then a swine flu wave hit Europe and no park would take the sweet little pig. Fast forward 3 years and a human epidemic, the daughter of my mom's room mate wants to send a butcher to have 'Paula' killed. Mind you, the woman has no ownership right to neither the house nor the pig in question! Her brother's daughter can't come and play im my mom's yard with the sow present. Sorry, I am laughing hysterically over that, otherwise my eyes would never return to a normal position.

we owe animals the best life according to their species and needs.
That is the ability to root and wallow in mud for pigs, to eat everything the world has to offer.
And kind treatment.

Same for chickens.
they deserve to be held in an environment suitable for their needs: peck and scratch, and have a balanced diet that covers their needs.
And in the end, have a swift and painless death.

Because there are worse things than death.

 

[ashcons]

Because there are worse things than death.

Like no occasional ribeye?

Feel bad for the chicken and OP having to watch its slow starvation. I've known people like OP's friend and no amount of education is going to change her belief that she is doing right by the chicken.

 

[Alagirl]

Like no occasional ribeye?

Feel bad for the chicken and OP having to watch its slow starvation. I've known people like OP's friend and no amount of education is going to change her belief that she is doing right by the chicken.

Kind of like reading PETA pamphlets on animal keeping. They seem to start off with an audible eyeroll: Well, if you HAVE to be so mean and keep a captive animal!!!!!
Veganism is a few bridges too far for me. One can do without ribeye (seriously, I do crave red meat at times) but there are other items on the ban list that are just stupid.
Wool for one, and honey another. While I can see the avoidance of dairy (the baby animals are largely surplus for the dairy and are sent for meat) eggs are fine. Hens lay eggs whether or not a rooster is near.

None so blind as those who don't want to see. Dogma has shut them out of reason

 

[NatJ]

Veganism is a few bridges too far for me.... I can see the avoidance of dairy (the baby animals are largely surplus for the dairy and are sent for meat)

Quite a few of the female calves will be raised to be the next generation of milk-producing cows, so they are not "surplus" by any definition. And if people are going to eat meat, then raising calves for meat means they are filling a different useful role.

But yes, if someone wants to avoid any animals being killed, avoiding dairy makes sense because at least half the calves will be male, and thus destined for slaughter.

eggs are fine. Hens lay eggs whether or not a rooster is near.

True, hens will lay eggs anyway. But to get all those hens, someone hatched an equal number of male chicks, because so far there is no practical way to sex them until after they hatch. The males are killed, usually right away because they don't grow fast enough to be worth raising for meat. So for people who do not want any animals to be killed, I think it does make sense to avoid eggs.

None so blind as those who don't want to see. Dogma has shut them out of reason

Personally, I have no trouble with eating meat. But if people want to avoid any killing of animals, then it is reasonable for them to avoid both dairy and eggs.

(But if someone "rescues" a hen and she later lays eggs, I do think it is reasonable to eat those eggs-- that will not cause harm to any other chickens. Just like if someone gets a cow who is already producing milk, it makes sense to use that milk for as long as she continues to give it, even if the person then chooses not to rebreed her.)

 

[Alagirl]

Quite a few of the female calves will be raised to be the next generation of milk-producing cows, so they are not "surplus" by any definition. And if people are going to eat meat, then raising calves for meat means they are filling a different useful role.

But yes, if someone wants to avoid any animals being killed, avoiding dairy makes sense because at least half the calves will be male, and thus destined for slaughter.


True, hens will lay eggs anyway. But to get all those hens, someone hatched an equal number of male chicks, because so far there is no practical way to sex them until after they hatch. The males are killed, usually right away because they don't grow fast enough to be worth raising for meat. So for people who do not want any animals to be killed, I think it does make sense to avoid eggs.


Personally, I have no trouble with eating meat. But if people want to avoid any killing of animals, then it is reasonable for them to avoid both dairy and eggs.

(But if someone "rescues" a hen and she later lays eggs, I do think it is reasonable to eat those eggs-- that will not cause harm to any other chickens. Just like if someone gets a cow who is already producing milk, it makes sense to use that milk for as long as she continues to give it, even if the person then chooses not to rebreed her.)

true, hens have to come from somewhere.
I question the logic though when people shun honey.
After all, bees are vital in the production of produce. Instead, they go forth, use the produce pollinated by bees, spend $$ in energy to harvest the fruit, process it with additives and more energy to derive at a fake 'honey'. while the real thing happens.
and it does not hurt a hive to lose some of the honey. Plus it is beneficial for one's immune system to eat locally produced honey. (as it is to consume locally produced, seasonal produce)
or leather substitutes. One cannot tell me it is better for the environment than real leather!
We can't remove ourselves from the circle of life, as much as we want to.

 

[Demonwolf37]

...but there are other items on the ban list that are just stupid.
Wool for one, and honey another....

Honey especially, where the alternatives (assuming one uses alternatives) are worse for the environment to farm. Agave (while absolutely delicious) is not a sustainable crop by any means, and needs to be imported for most of the world. Wool as well, now that I think about it. Many alternatives are not great either.

Although I will complain that honey bees are not a native species in the US, do a poor job pollinating local plants, and have been known to kill off native bees. In other words, an invasive species. Otherwise I'd happily keep them.

The following several paragraphs is a complaint upon the corporate food industry in regards to ethics, sustainability, and cost. As well as how advertising is deliberately misleading consumers into thinking their products are ethical. Many times the victims of this misleading advertising genuinely want to do what is best, but are tricked into believing that the products they're buying are ethical when they are not. This isn't meant as a criticism for people being vegetarian/vegan for these reasons - but rather a complaint of the "vegan" label being used as shorthand for "ethical" (especially on products) when it is not.

To skip this, go to the next bolded text.

In regards to other posts, I will vehemently disagree that all farming is unethical regardless of quality of life. People need to eat and there is no 100% ethical way to eat and survive. I'd further argue that eating locally and sustainably is more ethical and environmentally friendly than veganism alone.

One of the major points of me getting chickens is so that I can survive almost entirely locally and self-sufficiently - negating the need for importing foods which is a huge ecological nightmare. If you want to have a specialized diet on top of that, whatever, but it bothers me when people claim to be vegan for ecological or ethical reasons, and then eat food that is heavily imported, not sustainable, or produced by underpaid or unpaid laborers.

If you can do both, that's great, but one of my biggest complaints about mainstream commercial veganism is that you can slap the vegan label on it, and people will buy it without any further thought as to if that product is ecologically sustainable or ethical. It's a lot harder to find out if products you buy are local or produced ethically because there's no commercial incentive to give out that information. (This is one of the reasons I love milk, because it is very easy to find out EXACTLY where that milk came from, and at least in my area, a lot of the farms will let you tour their premises if you ask. So even though I don't have cows and probably never will, I don't need to labor over where that milk is coming from.)

It's part of the reason I wish agriculture was a required subject in schools. There's a huge disconnect between people and their food. Companies can slap "free range," "cage free," "vegan," or "vegetarian" on their products - but none of these terms mean anything in regards to how ethically that product was actually obtained. And on top of actually finding out how to product was obtained - an already difficult process because companies absolutely do not want you to find out how they obtained their product - you will quickly discover that most companies do not bother obtaining an ethical or local product. So your list of acceptable purchases shrinks even further. It's endlessly frustrating, and a problem that I unfortunately don't have the means to do much about. Milk, meat, and eggs are usually local in my area - certain brands anyway - and I can get veggies from farmers markets when I have money to do so, but as of right now, I'm still very reliant on companies that provide cheap product. I'm broke - and what is cheap is usually neither ethical nor sustainable.

This is why one of my major goals is to become mostly self-sufficient, and only buy imported products as a rare treat. (It means basically giving up chocolate, because there's pretty much no ethical way of getting chocolate unless you are rich or can grow it yourself, which is not something I have the time for in this climate). But for that to happen I need the space to grow lots of foods and keep many animals - something I also need money for.

--------

Anyway, back to the original post.

I do wonder if OP's "friend" could be convinced of feeding them a commercial poultry feed by telling them that the feed is also "vegan". Since they're not laying, layer feed is not necessary and the oyster shell is then not on the list. I doubt the "friend" will spend the time to verify that all the ingredients listed are sourced from plants, but if none of the ingredients are explicitly animal products, they may be convinced.

Maybe it could be as simple as, "Hey, I wonder if your chicken is getting x nutrients from just greens. Normally they also eat fruits and tubers to supplement their diets. I use x feed - which is 'vegan' and has everything they need to live a long and happy life. Feed them x cups a day and they're set."

I mention feeding them only a certain amount because OP mentions them being a commercial cross, and I believe they tend to gorge themselves, and may need to be limited on how much they have access to.

I'm not too worried about them being indoors constantly, so long as they get to roam around (which they do not at night, but I would start with the feed and fight that battle later). Maybe if they seem receptive to this idea, you could argue for a bigger crate to roost in at night - and I do hope the crate at least has a roost.

If they're not receptive to the commercial feed - or any kind of diet supplement - then I would definitely begin thinking about finding a way to rescue this "rescue".

 

[BDutch]

….True, hens will lay eggs anyway. But to get all those hens, someone hatched an equal number of male chicks, because so far there is no practical way to sex them until after they hatch. The males are killed, usually right away because they don't grow fast enough to be worth raising for meat. So for people who do not want any animals to be killed, I think it does make sense to avoid eggs.
….

In the Netherlands they sell a brand of eggs where the male chickens grow up (till about 15 weeks old and organic) to get slaughtered.
The chickens who lay eggs have a bit more space as is required. They eat partly leftovers from bakery products.

 

[Alagirl]

In the Netherlands they sell a brand of eggs where the male chickens grow up (till about 15 weeks old and organic) to get slaughtered.
The chickens who lay eggs have a bit more space as is required. They eat partly leftovers from bakery products.

but that eating the roos is the non-vegan component.
I mean, I am perfectly fine with it. I like eating chicken. (not ones I raise from chicks, I'd whimp out for sure)