Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

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Yes, letdown is different than production, as MadGardener described, in cows as in people. I grew up on a dairy farm. Without letdown, the only milk that will come out, is what is in the big milk ducts and the cisterns (about 20% of the volume stored in the udder at any given time). That can be removed from the udder by overcoming the teat sphincter barrier (basically, by a calf sucking on it, a human hand mimicking that pressure, or the inflations of a milking machine mimicking the motion). - side note, the vacuum of a milking machine never sucks the milk out - instead it varies the pressure of the inflation against the teat . The inflation is the flexible part inside the steel tube that the teat goes in. The other 80% of the milk is stored in tiny sacs (alvioli) and small ducts. This will only come out is the muscles around them contract. These muscles have no nerves to them. They contract in response to the presence of oxytocin in the blood. Oxytocin is the hormone released during letdown.

The robot-milked cows on the farm I visited had a free stall barn. They also had extensive pastures for the lactating cows as well as dry cows and young stock. Some dairies don't have pastures. Many do.

Buffalo, bison, deer, antelope, mountain goats, big horn sheep, etc, all carry young nearly every year. As do beef cattle managed as range cattle with bulls with the herd all year.

This artificial insemination is a bad thing idea is one of the more obvious attacks on cattlemen for the sake of attacking them; nothing to do with the health or well-being of the cattle or kinkiness on the part of humans (which is also being added to the narrative). It takes the bull literally ten to fifteen seconds to do the deed. There isn't any courting as there is in chickens. The cow is either in standing heat or she is not. If she is, she accepts anything putting pressure on her back. If she is not, she rejects everything mounting her. What is sometimes labeled "courting" on youtube videos is the bull testing whether she will stand yet - by scent mostly, sometimes by laying his chin on her back. It is the same for a bull that is a herdmate as it is for a bull that was trailered in two minutes before the act. If he is trailed in when she is in full standing heat, he doesn't bother resting his chin on her back because he knows she will stand.

This is long enough, so I won't start into the cow burps and farts cause the majority (if I did Gate's math in "How to Avoid a Global Catastrophy" book correctly) of human-activity global warming nonsense.
 
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Milk letdown is not the same as milk production. I don't have experience keeping dairy animals, but I was one 20 years ago lol

During nursing, oxytocin from skin on skin contact stimulates a "letdown" response. The same amount of milk is there, it just comes out on its own with gentle force. It allows the infant to drink more for their effort, in fact a human baby gets frustrated if this doesn't happen. And is a relief for the mother as it eases the pain of engorgement.

Again, no experience with dairy animals. But I think it's likely that lactation is similar across mammal species.

I'm seeing a lot of well thought out ideas here and am enjoying the read!
thanks for explaining that!! I misunderstood, I also wrote that post before my morning coffee so I'll blame that in part 🤣
 
This will only come out is the muscles around them contract. These muscles have no nerves to them. They contract in response to the presence of oxytocin in the blood. Oxytocin is the hormone released during letdown
A bit off topic, I apologize, but it got me thinking.

Is this why calves and lambs and other livestock offspring headbutt the udder before nursing? I remember some of our lambs seemed almost vicious with their headbutt towards their mothers
 
A bit off topic, I apologize, but it got me thinking.

Is this why calves and lambs and other livestock offspring headbutt the udder before nursing? I remember some of our lambs seemed almost vicious with their headbutt towards their mothers
Goats, too. I see it every day.
 
A bit off topic, I apologize, but it got me thinking.

Is this why calves and lambs and other livestock offspring headbutt the udder before nursing? I remember some of our lambs seemed almost vicious with their headbutt towards their mothers
It's theorized it's why kittens "make biscuits." Sometimes cats weaned too early will compulsively knead their whole lives.
 
I started reading this thread and have to stop..... I am horrified, angered, disgusted, and saddened by this person's (not the OP, the "rescuer") ignorance and cruelty.

ETA - kudos to the OP. I don't know how you keep your patience in the face of such ignorance.

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A bit off topic, I apologize, but it got me thinking.

Is this why calves and lambs and other livestock offspring headbutt the udder before nursing? I remember some of our lambs seemed almost vicious with their headbutt towards their mothers
Yes, it is part of the stimulation/messaging. The bunting contributes to the rubbing and bending of the teats. It probably also massages the udder which is part touch stimulation and part moving fluids around like a person might do to help move fluid from swollen legs. It might be giving other signals too - maybe encouraging the cow or doe to turn and look or sniff - not sure about that part.

The rest is probably more than you want but I have a lot going on today so will copy/paste some of my research notes instead of fine tuning. This info is mostly copied but partly paraphrased to shorten it and for readability. It is from http://www.nmconline.org/articles/milkejctn.pdf although the link doesn't work anymore. It is in line with much other research.

Touch of the teats stimulates pressure and touch-sensitive nerve endings in the teat skin. Those receptors fire off signals which travel to the brain resulting in a release of oxytocin into the blood. The blood carries the oxytocin to the tiny muscles surrounding each tiny sac within the udder. The hormones prolactin, cortisol, and various stomach/intestinal hormones are also released. Their roles are unclear. There is some evidence to suggest prolactin plays a role in maintaining milk secrection and cortisol contributes to making amino acids and other fatty acids available for milk production. As for the stomach/intestinal hormones - "probably...activates of the vagal nerves in order to adapt the food intake and metabolism" [to match the added demand on her resources due to producing the milk].

(skip this paragraph if you want the simple version - this is just a detailed description of the above paraphraph) "nerve impulses which travel via segmental pathways in the CNS (central nervous system) to the PVN (paraventricular nulei) and SON (supraoptic nuclei) in the hypothalamus resulting in a release of the pituitary hormone oxytocin. Oxytocin is a nonapeptide consisting of nine amino acids and it is produced in the SON and PVN in the hypothalamus. Via carrier proteins (neurophysin I) oxytocin is transported from the cell bodies PVN and SON through the pituitary stalk. From the pituitary it is released into the blood and transported to the udder where it attaches to the receptors at the myoepithelial cells surrounding the alveoli. As a result the myoepithelial cells contract to expel the milk."

The kind of touch is important. Warmth matters. Pressure matters [not just squeezing the teats, but rubbing and bending them]. Studies in the 1950's found 30% difference in milk production between minimal teat stimulation and optimal teat stimulation. Later studies showed less difference probably because of years of breeding for milkability [something to keep in mind if you are milking a beef cow or beef cross cow].

It is the timing between the beginning of the touching and the beginning of the milking rather than the amount of oxytocin released that is important for efficient emptying of the udder. From the beginning of the touching until the beginning of the milk ejection is about 1 to 2 minutes. Significantly more milk is left in the udder if milking is started 5 minutes after the start of the touching vs 1 minute.

Touch is not the only stimulant that is important. It is the most efficient stimulant but the milk ejection reflex can also be activated by visual or auditory stimulation of the calf. Feeding also induces a release of oxytocin. Feeding 1.5 hours before milking gave higher milking-related release than when the cows were fed 1.5 hours after milking and incremental feeding during milking has a positive influence on milking parameters such as milking time, milk flow and amount of residual milk

And there are also inhibitors.
Stress activates the release of adrenaline which counteracts the oxytocin by blockading the oxytocin receptors in those tiny muscles surrounding the little alveoli sacs. This means milk flow into the cisterns is cut off (or reduced, depending on how much adrenaline is flowing around). This is peripheral inhibition because the stoppage mechanism is active out away from the brain.

And there can be central inhibition (the stoppage happens inside the brain). The disturbed milk ejection reflex was a lack of oxytocin being released even though the other hormones (prolactin, and so on) were being released as expected. This is the kind that happens immediately after calving, during heats, and when milking happens in unfamiliar surroundings.
 

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