Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[BelovedBirds]

Indeed I appreciate that your response is more thought out with actual belief system behind it. Yet I STILL have to ask them WHY they won't eat the eggs from my little ethical farm because unlike you they probably do, I know they certainly DID before all of this, like eggs. But they WON'T now because just like you said, they can't wear the label of "vegan." I feel pretty fortunate that my parents labled me "Kris" and it ends there for me.

yeah I agree, it doesnt make sense. If I liked eggs, I would eat them from my birds on occassion. Perhaps if they were in a cake, someday I will, but generally I simply dont like them- It does sound all about labels for them which is pretty sad.

 

[Geena]

perhaps I seem weak

Not at all, and being thoughtful, compassionate and hopeful are excellent qualities. The world could use more young people like you.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Not at all, and being thoughtful, compassionate and hopeful are excellent qualities. The world could use more young people like you.

thank you! That means a lot!

 

[HenriettaPizzaNolan]

I don't even think the issue here is the food being "vegan", it's just that she's straight up not feeding the chicken the right diet. Many bags of commercial feed are "vegan". And she could also supplement the chicken's diet with things like grains and it would have a better chance at being healthy.

I have a lot of opinions about veganism but I will save those for another time. This person is just neglecting a chicken. OP, if you have already told her these things and she continues on neglecting the chicken, maybe see if there is a local animal welfare group you can call.

 

[cassie]

Thank you for asking! Sadly the mouse passed away after a couple days- he was a wild baby, I believe a field mouse. He had fur but was under 2 weeks and his eyes hadn't opened yet. Found in the rain-
He was a very sweet little thing and I did what I could- but in the end I believe he had a respiratory infection, and was very dehydrated. I used homemade electrolytes for him to try and get him hydrated, then 2 parts goats milk and 1 part electrolytes. I'm glad I tried to help him anyway! I spent hours attempting to nurse him to health over the course of two days, throughout night too but sadly it wasn't to be!

It's awesome about your pack rat! In my (less than popular) opinion, rats and mice make wonderful pets. They're sweeter than given credit for.

I have to disagree on the note about dairy cows, I do get that they have been bred for it and dont usually make good mothers... but the physical and emotional stress it puts on them to have a calf, lose them, and then produce large amounts of milk up until they are (usually) slaughtered, will always be cruel in my view. When I attended an agricultural college, I saw firsthand dairy production, which was free range and had the RSPCA pretty much on sight- and even then I hated what I saw and how they were kept and treated. I'm sure there are a number of homesteads that keep cows/goats for dairy, who consider the young and keep them happy and healthy, which I don't have as much of an issue with- perhaps I seem weak, but I don't think too much compassion is a bad thing! But yeah that's my opinion on it.
The comment I was disputing went something like "Vegans would be so much better off if they just had some dairy or egg in their diet" and came from a line of posts about vegans being brain damaged, and it being impossible to stay healthy as a vegan- Which was a little ridiculous.

I enjoyed this discussion too! Thank you for staying kind and everything!

As I said, I don't know when to shut up. I was involved in the dairy industry for about 40 years in one way or another. For better or worse, I know something about cows, calves, milk production, and dairying. Most of the time the cow doesn't even notice when the calf is removed. One reason for this is because they are taken shortly after birth before the cow bonds with it. Don't believe me? Try giving the calf back to the cow after it has been gone for a day or even less. I once had a beef cow whose newborn calf I had to remove because it was badly chilled. I took it up to the house, warmed it up, and then took it back out to the cow. She would have nothing to do with it. I had taken the calf during the critical bonding period and once that window of time had passed there was no going back. Never could convince her that calf was hers.

Cows are not stressed by giving large amounts of milk. You can't force a cow to produce milk. Either she produces it or she doesn't. If a cow is stressed she will not let her milk down. In order for milk let down to occur, oxytocin must be released. If a cow is upset, she will release adrenaline, not oxytocin and you won't get a drop of milk out of her.

In some dairies cows are milked by robots and that process is a sight to behold. The cow has a sensor on her neck chain. When she wants to be milked she goes to the robot and maybe has to stand in line and wait her turn. When she gets up to it, the robot recognizes her, the gate opens, she goes into the stall, a special feed is dropped down (the amount of feed depends on which cow), the teats are cleaned, then an arm with the teat cups comes out and a laser senses where the teat is and the teat cups are applied. As soon as that quarter is emptied the teat cup drops off. When she is done a disinfectant is applied to the teat ends, the gate opens, and that cow goes on out to the barn to do whatever cows do and the next cow comes in. Heifers learn how to use the robots in about three or four days.

These particular cows are kept in free stalls bedded with over a foot of sand. Free stalls mean they can enter and leave the stalls at will. There is always feed available (dispensed by a robot) and in the winter the water is warm. Manure is scraped out of the barn automatically. The cows even have a brush they can go to so they can get their heads and backs scratched. The brush looks like the brushes you see in some car washes. I could watch video of the brush roller and the milking robot all day, but then I am easily entertained.

When I worked on the dairy the milking was done by me, not a robot, even though by the end of the shift I felt like one. The cows all came into the barn voluntarily. Only rarely did I have to fetch cows and these were cows that were at the end of their lactation and were ready to be dried off.

Sorry about your mouse. I really enjoyed my pack rat. I thought I would like to have a deer mouse but I never got the opportunity.

 

[kurby22]

This makes me sad :-(

 

[Egg Blues]

Thank you for asking! Sadly the mouse passed away after a couple days- he was a wild baby, I believe a field mouse. He had fur but was under 2 weeks and his eyes hadn't opened yet. Found in the rain-
He was a very sweet little thing and I did what I could- but in the end I believe he had a respiratory infection, and was very dehydrated. I used homemade electrolytes for him to try and get him hydrated, then 2 parts goats milk and 1 part electrolytes. I'm glad I tried to help him anyway! I spent hours attempting to nurse him to health over the course of two days, throughout night too but sadly it wasn't to be!

It's awesome about your pack rat! In my (less than popular) opinion, rats and mice make wonderful pets. They're sweeter than given credit for.

I have to disagree on the note about dairy cows, I do get that they have been bred for it and dont usually make good mothers... but the physical and emotional stress it puts on them to have a calf, lose them, and then produce large amounts of milk up until they are (usually) slaughtered, will always be cruel in my view. When I attended an agricultural college, I saw firsthand dairy production, which was free range and had the RSPCA pretty much on sight- and even then I hated what I saw and how they were kept and treated. I'm sure there are a number of homesteads that keep cows/goats for dairy, who consider the young and keep them happy and healthy, which I don't have as much of an issue with- perhaps I seem weak, but I don't think too much compassion is a bad thing! But yeah that's my opinion on it.
The comment I was disputing went something like "Vegans would be so much better off if they just had some dairy or egg in their diet" and came from a line of posts about vegans being brain damaged, and it being impossible to stay healthy as a vegan- Which was a little ridiculous.

I enjoyed this discussion too! Thank you for staying kind and everything!

Whether or not this was your situation, I do not know, but many who ignorantly attempt to raise a nursing baby mouse will fail because they did not stroke its anal region with a wet tissue or cloth to stimulate it to relieve itself. The mother will lick it for this purpose. It will die in about 2-3 days from congestion/toxification if this is not done.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Whether or not this was your situation, I do not know, but many who ignorantly attempt to raise a nursing baby mouse will fail because they did not stroke its anal region with a wet tissue or cloth to stimulate it to relieve itself. The mother will lick it for this purpose. It will die in about 2-3 days from congestion/toxification if this is not done.

I'm not a fool, I did my research and did this after every feed. I don't take on animals of I dont know how to take care of them

 

[BelovedBirds]

As I said, I don't know when to shut up. I was involved in the dairy industry for about 40 years in one way or another. For better or worse, I know something about cows, calves, milk production, and dairying. Most of the time the cow doesn't even notice when the calf is removed. One reason for this is because they are taken shortly after birth before the cow bonds with it. Don't believe me? Try giving the calf back to the cow after it has been gone for a day or even less. I once had a beef cow whose newborn calf I had to remove because it was badly chilled. I took it up to the house, warmed it up, and then took it back out to the cow. She would have nothing to do with it. I had taken the calf during the critical bonding period and once that window of time had passed there was no going back. Never could convince her that calf was hers.

Cows are not stressed by giving large amounts of milk. You can't force a cow to produce milk. Either she produces it or she doesn't. If a cow is stressed she will not let her milk down. In order for milk let down to occur, oxytocin must be released. If a cow is upset, she will release adrenaline, not oxytocin and you won't get a drop of milk out of her.

In some dairies cows are milked by robots and that process is a sight to behold. The cow has a sensor on her neck chain. When she wants to be milked she goes to the robot and maybe has to stand in line and wait her turn. When she gets up to it, the robot recognizes her, the gate opens, she goes into the stall, a special feed is dropped down (the amount of feed depends on which cow), the teats are cleaned, then an arm with the teat cups comes out and a laser senses where the teat is and the teat cups are applied. As soon as that quarter is emptied the teat cup drops off. When she is done a disinfectant is applied to the teat ends, the gate opens, and that cow goes on out to the barn to do whatever cows do and the next cow comes in. Heifers learn how to use the robots in about three or four days.

These particular cows are kept in free stalls bedded with over a foot of sand. Free stalls mean they can enter and leave the stalls at will. There is always feed available (dispensed by a robot) and in the winter the water is warm. Manure is scraped out of the barn automatically. The cows even have a brush they can go to so they can get their heads and backs scratched. The brush looks like the brushes you see in some car washes. I could watch video of the brush roller and the milking robot all day, but then I am easily entertained.

When I worked on the dairy the milking was done by me, not a robot, even though by the end of the shift I felt like one. The cows all came into the barn voluntarily. Only rarely did I have to fetch cows and these were cows that were at the end of their lactation and were ready to be dried off.

Sorry about your mouse. I really enjoyed my pack rat. I thought I would like to have a deer mouse but I never got the opportunity.

this was interesting to read, and sounds great until you dig a bit-
Firstly cows dont don't usually out right stop producing milk as a result of stress- rather they produce less milk. But I don't believe just keeping them comfortable and reducing stress is enough here, they deserve more enrichment than standing in a stall or barn, they should be out grazing for most of the day. I know that they come in for milking and are generally happy with it, and I'm not saying milking a cow is bad, I'm saying farming them for milk is. Secondly, much of what you have said has focussed on the cows themselves, not the calves who are also part of the equation. No one can deny that carrying a calf, and giving birth to that calf is physically and emotionally stressful. Then to lose that calf, (you're right about this, not many cows get upset at this, as I mentioned before in agreement, cows were bred for their milk not mothering skills- but some definitely do get upset) is even more stress. Not just for her, but also for her baby who only just came into the world and is now being shipped off to be put on either rations, or milk replacement. They're without mum, and then usually being slaughtered for veal, or raised for the same viscous cycle. The large amount of breeding, increasing livstock numbers can also tie in here with harm to the planet.

Even if we imagine a perfect dairy farm, where the calves were humanely raised, the cows could graze etc etc, it still breaks down into this: Insemination, pregnancy, birth, loss, milk production for around 10 months, repeat for usually 4 or 5 years (an age where these animals are still young) and then kill. It's an industry that I can only view as selfish, at best.
And this is without considering the fairly common diseases associated with dairy farming, although this mainly applies to factory farming.

When this is combined with other information found in this thread, that (just about) the majority of people cannot properly digest cow's milk, I think we're faced with the need to finally make a change.

Now, disclaimer, I don't know a huge amount about cattle, only basics from research and what I have seen personally. So feel free to correct me if I got something wrong. Another disclaimer, I also don't know when to shut up, so we may need to wrap this up or it will never stop lol

 

[MadGardener]

Firstly cows dont don't usually out right stop producing milk as a result of stress- rather they produce less milk.

Milk letdown is not the same as milk production. I don't have experience keeping dairy animals, but I was one 20 years ago lol

During nursing, oxytocin from skin on skin contact stimulates a "letdown" response. The same amount of milk is there, it just comes out on its own with gentle force. It allows the infant to drink more for their effort, in fact a human baby gets frustrated if this doesn't happen. And is a relief for the mother as it eases the pain of engorgement.

Again, no experience with dairy animals. But I think it's likely that lactation is similar across mammal species.

I'm seeing a lot of well thought out ideas here and am enjoying the read!