Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[Chicken Heel]

As a young lad, I recall asking my Pa Shook about a calf banging his head on his momma's teats and he told me it meant, "Feed me damnit". It was something even a four year old could understand.

 

[cassie]

I started reading this thread and have to stop..... I am horrified, angered, disgusted, and saddened by this person's (not the OP, the "rescuer") ignorance and cruelty.

ETA - kudos to the OP. I don't know how you keep your patience in the face of such ignorance.

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this was interesting to read, and sounds great until you dig a bit-
Firstly cows dont don't usually out right stop producing milk as a result of stress- rather they produce less milk. But I don't believe just keeping them comfortable and reducing stress is enough here, they deserve more enrichment than standing in a stall or barn, they should be out grazing for most of the day. I know that they come in for milking and are generally happy with it, and I'm not saying milking a cow is bad, I'm saying farming them for milk is. Secondly, much of what you have said has focussed on the cows themselves, not the calves who are also part of the equation. No one can deny that carrying a calf, and giving birth to that calf is physically and emotionally stressful. Then to lose that calf, (you're right about this, not many cows get upset at this, as I mentioned before in agreement, cows were bred for their milk not mothering skills- but some definitely do get upset) is even more stress. Not just for her, but also for her baby who only just came into the world and is now being shipped off to be put on either rations, or milk replacement. They're without mum, and then usually being slaughtered for veal, or raised for the same viscous cycle. The large amount of breeding, increasing livstock numbers can also tie in here with harm to the planet.

Even if we imagine a perfect dairy farm, where the calves were humanely raised, the cows could graze etc etc, it still breaks down into this: Insemination, pregnancy, birth, loss, milk production for around 10 months, repeat for usually 4 or 5 years (an age where these animals are still young) and then kill. It's an industry that I can only view as selfish, at best.
And this is without considering the fairly common diseases associated with dairy farming, although this mainly applies to factory farming.

When this is combined with other information found in this thread, that (just about) the majority of people cannot properly digest cow's milk, I think we're faced with the need to finally make a change.

Now, disclaimer, I don't know a huge amount about cattle, only basics from research and what I have seen personally. So feel free to correct me if I got something wrong. Another disclaimer, I also don't know when to shut up, so we may need to wrap this up or it will never stop lol

I will address some of the points you made. The calf doesn't care whether or not it has a mother. It cares about whether and when it is getting fed. Male calves are raised for dairy beef or veal. I have seen a lot of cows in the milk string that are far older than four or five. When I was doing DHIA testing I tested one cow that was almost 20. She wasn't milking a lot but she was milking enough to pay for her feed. If the cow was in the wild, chances are she would not make it much past four or five. I am not sure what diseases you are talking about. I will also say that cows on very large dairies are better off than they are in a lot of small ones simply because the accommodations for the cow are better. I am basing that opinion on what I saw when I was doing DHIA testing. I saw a lot of different dairies when I was doing that. Grazing on pasture is overrated. Cows like pasture but they also like comfortable free stalls. Lying in a free stall bedded with a foot of soft sand to chew your cud is a lot more comfortable than lying on the hard ground. I described the relationship between cows and people as being symbiotic. In a symbiotic relationship both sides benefit. Just so you know, if the cow was in the wild with no people around her life would not be all beer and skittles. She would also be pregnant more than if she was in the dairy. Why? Because if she was in the wild the bull would breed her as soon as she came into heat after calving, as soon as thirty days or so. In the dairy, cows are usually not rebred for three months or so. I forget now exactly how long but the object is to give the cow time to recover from calving. You object to the fact that dairy cows end up as meat, but in the wild she would be at the mercy of predators and I can assure you the chances of her dying in her bed of old age are slim and none. The majority of people can digest milk just fine, but it is true some are lactose intolerant. A lot of people who cannot tolerate milk can tolerate cheese. Whether you can digest milk or not depends on genetics. People of northern European extraction can usually drink milk all of their lives while people of Mediterranean or African ancestry cannot tolerate milk but most of them can digest cheese. At least that is what I remember from the genetics class I took years ago.

You are right that we should probably wrap this up. I really enjoyed my years of working on the dairy working with cows. I found the cows to be relaxing to be around. I had a commercial goat dairy for many years also. I loved my goats, but they are anything but relaxing. I admit I am passionate about goats and cows. I loved my goats and I loved my cows. Once I get started on them, as you can see, it is hard to get me to shut up and I am sure I have said far more about them than anyone ever wanted to hear.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I will address some of the points you made. The calf doesn't care whether or not it has a mother. It cares about whether and when it is getting fed. Male calves are raised for dairy beef or veal. I have seen a lot of cows in the milk string that are far older than four or five. When I was doing DHIA testing I tested one cow that was almost 20. She wasn't milking a lot but she was milking enough to pay for her feed. If the cow was in the wild, chances are she would not make it much past four or five. I am not sure what diseases you are talking about. I will also say that cows on very large dairies are better off than they are in a lot of small ones simply because the accommodations for the cow are better. I am basing that opinion on what I saw when I was doing DHIA testing. I saw a lot of different dairies when I was doing that. Grazing on pasture is overrated. Cows like pasture but they also like comfortable free stalls. Lying in a free stall bedded with a foot of soft sand to chew your cud is a lot more comfortable than lying on the hard ground. I described the relationship between cows and people as being symbiotic. In a symbiotic relationship both sides benefit. Just so you know, if the cow was in the wild with no people around her life would not be all beer and skittles. She would also be pregnant more than if she was in the dairy. Why? Because if she was in the wild the bull would breed her as soon as she came into heat after calving, as soon as thirty days or so. In the dairy, cows are usually not rebred for three months or so. I forget now exactly how long but the object is to give the cow time to recover from calving. You object to the fact that dairy cows end up as meat, but in the wild she would be at the mercy of predators and I can assure you the chances of her dying in her bed of old age are slim and none. The majority of people can digest milk just fine, but it is true some are lactose intolerant. A lot of people who cannot tolerate milk can tolerate cheese. Whether you can digest milk or not depends on genetics. People of northern European extraction can usually drink milk all of their lives while people of Mediterranean or African ancestry cannot tolerate milk but most of them can digest cheese. At least that is what I remember from the genetics class I took years ago.

You are right that we should probably wrap this up. I really enjoyed my years of working on the dairy working with cows. I found the cows to be relaxing to be around. I had a commercial goat dairy for many years also. I loved my goats, but they are anything but relaxing. I admit I am passionate about goats and cows. I loved my goats and I loved my cows. Once I get started on them, as you can see, it is hard to get me to shut up and I am sure I have said far more about them than anyone ever wanted to hear.

it may be different here, Ive never heard of dairy cows living past 5 where I am, and again I am talking about the norm of commercial farming opposed to the occassional ones with better practices.
It's amazing there was a 20 year old which you once worked with- but then again, having a calf past the age of nine, in order to produce milk to begin with, seems a very risky and unkind business. If I were to ever agree with farming for dairy, it would be on a small scale, a few cows, and they would be retired. But this isnt possible when you factor in expenses, or profit for that matter.
Dairy farming isn't something you can compare with nature- we all know that nature can be cruel. Most animals die young, and the goal is the survival of the species- not the comfort of the individual.
When we domesticate an animal, I believe the burden is on us to create a comfortable life for them. Farming them for what we can get out of them, then disposing of them once the last thing we can use is their bodies, isn't symbiotic. I don't see how the animal really benefits from it when the very reason they are alive is because of us, and any suffering they experience is on our shoulders. Whatever care we give them would surely be compensation for the suffering? And it just doesnt feel like the good out weighs the bad in tbat scenario. It isn't a partnership.

It's sweet about your personal relationship with the cows, and your goats. I'd love to have cows someday, just for fun. Perhaps unrealistic, but still They're great animals.
Thank you for talking with me! It was really interesting to hear your views and experiences.

 

[Anime2lover]

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks. She's now 2 years old and poor girl doesn't look healthy at all. She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs. She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation. She is fed 3 small cat bowls of mixed greens per day, and when she was still laying that would also include one boiled egg with shell.

Her feathers are dull and scrappy, she's bony and underweight, still has down feathers on her tail, has an almost yellow pallored face, and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying. Citing "speciesism", the owner will not see a vet.

The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens, but I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed. She lives indoors so she gets no forage. Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)? Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens? And if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

This is simply called cruelty to the animal. Or lack of proper knowledge on chicken care. Chickens need, and love meat. My chickens proved that yesterday by slaughtering some poor innocent unlucky frog,then proceeded to chase the one holding the frog alp across my yard.

 

[luckycluk]

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks. She's now 2 years old and poor girl doesn't look healthy at all. She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs. She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation. She is fed 3 small cat bowls of mixed greens per day, and when she was still laying that would also include one boiled egg with shell.

Her feathers are dull and scrappy, she's bony and underweight, still has down feathers on her tail, has an almost yellow pallored face, and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying. Citing "speciesism", the owner will not see a vet.

The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens, but I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed. She lives indoors so she gets no forage. Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)? Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens? And if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

Can you call animal control and report him for animal abuse or neglect? If a animal rescue got this chicken maybe utopia could rehome it. The worst would be they would euthanize the poor thing. This breaks my heart to hear of animals being mistreated. Like this

 

[BDutch]

Cornish crosses are not made to live long under the best of circumstances. You might tell this person about this so they know what they are in for. An all vegetable diet certainly won't help! Chickens need a fair amount of protein and they won't get it eating spinach. They are omnivores for a reason.

Chickens who lay a lot of eggs need a lot of proteins (and calcium). Chickens who lay just one egg a week, don’t.

How important is it to give meat to chickens? Not!.
Why I am sure that chickens can live on a veggie diet:
All commercial chickens in Europe have been on a vegen diet (with suppl vitamins) without any problems for decades. Chickens don’t need meat because they are omnivores (not carnivores) and they eat what is available.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Chickens who lay a lot of eggs need a lot of proteins (and calcium). Chickens who lay just one egg a week, don’t.

How important is it to give meat to chickens? Not!.
Why I am sure that chickens can live on a veggie diet:
All commercial chickens in Europe have been on a vegen diet (with suppl vitamins) without any problems for decades. Chickens don’t need meat because they are omnivores (not carnivores) and they eat what is available.

Once again, you've glossed over the important part. Without the use of synthetic amino acids (and yes, also vitamins), the European feeds don't work. So say decades of European research. Not that the birds will die, necessarily, on an unsupplimented vegan diet, but they will be underweight, slower growing, more prone to illness and injury, less productive ( laying smaller eggs, less frequently) and suffer longer and more severe molts, as well.

Continued efforts to draw parallels between the European diet and the plate of greens offered by OP's neighbor are ignorant at best, disingenous at worst.

 

[BDutch]

Once again, you've glossed over the important part. Without the use of synthetic amino acids (and yes, also vitamins), the European feeds don't work. So say decades of European research. Not that the birds will die, necessarily, on an unsupplimented vegan diet, but they will be underweight, slower growing, more prone to illness and injury, less productive ( laying smaller eggs, less frequently) and suffer longer and more severe molts, as well.

Continued efforts to draw parallels between the European diet and the plate of greens offered by OP's neighbor are ignorant at best, disingenous at worst.

I don’t get it. Why the need of synthetic amino acids? I think the feed industry is only using that because its cheaper.
There are many natural amino acids in animal sources of protein, such as meat, fish, insects, eggs, milk. Vegetable sources of natural amino acids include food like nuts, soybeans and quinoa.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I don’t get it. Why the need of synthetic amino acids? I think the feed industry is only using that because its cheaper.
There are many natural amino acids in animal sources of protein, such as meat, fish, insects, eggs, milk. Vegetable sources of natural amino acids include food like nuts, soybeans and quinoa.

amd this is why you should have remained quiet. Put the shovel down, stop digging. I've explained why, in this thread (among others, etc). I've even offered analogies for those who lack grounding in the necessary science.

I'm fairly certain, based on the lack of any acknowledgement thus far, that sitting down in a thunderstorm to type out a many page post explaining it again, in even more simple terms, is not worth my time - in spite of my being stuck inside for the foreseeable future.

 

[Suzz]

Chickens who lay a lot of eggs need a lot of proteins (and calcium). Chickens who lay just one egg a week, don’t.

How important is it to give meat to chickens? Not!.
Why I am sure that chickens can live on a veggie diet:
All commercial chickens in Europe have been on a vegen diet (with suppl vitamins) without any problems for decades. Chickens don’t need meat because they are omnivores (not carnivores) and they eat what is available.

Chicken certainly do not need meat but its fun to feed it to them once in a while and watch them turn into tiny dinosaurs they go absolutely nuts for it more than cats who are obligate carnivores