Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[BelovedBirds]

I've talked out the issue of eating eggs to them and no amount of common sense is going to prevail.

It sounds like you could be a little more respectful of their beliefs, you can't force someone to eat or not eat something. If they aren't comfortable with it, that's their right, and it isn't a matter of "common sense". It's a complex issue.
But of course I don't know the full situation, or their reasoning, so forgive me if I misunderstood.

On other notes, I sadly agree, there's probably no getting through to these people
Chickens just should not be vegan.

 

[SandyRiverChick]

It sounds like you could be a little more respectful of their beliefs, you can't force someone to eat or not eat something. If they aren't comfortable with it, that's their right, and it isn't a matter of "common sense". It's a complex issue.
But of course I don't know the full situation, or their reasoning, so forgive me if I misunderstood.

On other notes, I sadly agree, there's probably no getting through to these people
Chickens just should not be vegan.

I am actually very respectful and go to great lengths to provide Vegan options for them at all gatherings with them. But it's a lack of beliefs, that comes out when I ask them why Vegans consider an unfertilized egg off the plan. Their answer is just "because it's not allowed for Vegans." I'm trying to challenge them to THINK it through instead of following the club rules. Likely you have actual beliefs and a better response but these guys truly are just doing it to because they like having a label.

 

[JedJackson]

Cornish crosses are not made to live long under the best of circumstances. You might tell this person about this so they know what they are in for. An all vegetable diet certainly won't help! Chickens need a fair amount of protein and they won't get it eating spinach. They are omnivores for a reason.

 

[Geena]

it is worse for the planet.

That is a completely different topic. By far the worse thing for this planet is the number of human beings that occupy it and our consumption of it's resources. Until we address that situation, nothing will change, and it will only get worse over time as the numbers climb. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but that's the true elephant in the room.

 

[JedJackson]

That is a completely different topic. By far the worse thing for this planet is the number of human beings that occupy it and our consumption of it's resources. Until we address that situation, nothing will change, and it will only get worse over time as the numbers climb. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but that's the true elephant in the room.

Very true.

 

[cassie]

I'll reply to a couple points you made- firstly I agree, a balance is what matters. This is exactly my point- dairy is not necessary for a healthy diet- now my personal belief of it being wrong to have is irrelevant. My argument is purely defence against a person here spreading lies and claiming that vegans need dairy etc.
We simply don't. Thus I think a more humane option for those nutrients is preferable.

Second you did state one example which is understandable, there are exceptions when I think dairy can be needed. Only recently I had to purchase goats milk in an attempt to save an orphaned baby mouse. It was an exception, examples like this I understand and sympathise with. But having it as a staple food is not necessary, nor is it good in my opinion


Thirdly and finally, I'll list examples. A mother feeding her baby is natural, a different species farming mothers then removing their babies so they can drink the milk instead, is not natural. It's interesting you give the Aphid example! This is a good one- but is just not the same as farming sentient beings for a product which is meant to be for their babies. I also want to throw in that despite my argument as to what is natural to do or unnatural- nature is not always humane, in fact it rarely is. And one point I want to make is that we cant really compare ourselves to wild animals. We are smarter, we are aware of our actions and how they affect others, a lion does not know nor care if the zebra is in prolonged pain. But we know they are, and that makes it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering. We have a standard to meet which is much higher than any other species.

Just curious. How is your mouse? I raised a baby pack rat once. Although I had a goat dairy at the time, I fed him canned milk diluted five parts milk and one part water. I did this because I didn't think goat milk was nutrient dense enough for him. I would be interested in knowing how your mouse did. What kind of mouse is it?

I don't recall hearing anyone ever saying that vegans or anyone else needs milk or must have it for a balanced diet. Whoever said that was wrong. Some people don't have access to milk and some people can't stand it.

Just a comment. Removing dairy calves from their mothers so the milk can be used is not cruel. It is done for their health if nothing else. Bear in mind we have had a symbiotic relationship with cows going back centuries. Dairy cows are bred for dairy. A good high producing Holstein cow can produce 200 pounds or more of milk a day. A calf needs only between eight and ten pounds of milk per day. One gallon of milk weighs 8.5 pounds if you want to do the math. The calf is not being deprived at all.

You may or may not find this of interest. A neighbor of mine, due to illness, had to raise his dairy calves naturally one year. Meaning he left the calves on the cows and did not (because he couldn't) milk the cows. He ended up losing almost all of them, both cows and calves. The calves died of scours because of too much milk and the cows died of mastitis because they weren't milked out.

I never do know when to shut up. I will go away now. I did enjoy the discussion with you. Please do give me an update on your mouse. My pack rat made a fine pet. He was pretty too. I had him for a little more than two years. I miss him.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I am actually very respectful and go to great lengths to provide Vegan options for them at all gatherings with them. But it's a lack of beliefs, that comes out when I ask them why Vegans consider an unfertilized egg off the plan. Their answer is just "because it's not allowed for Vegans." I'm trying to challenge them to THINK it through instead of following the club rules. Likely you have actual beliefs and a better response but these guys truly are just doing it to because they like having a label.

okay I agree with you. I was expecting some form of defence lol

Anyways if you still want the reasoning from another vegan, most of the problem is found in two points, 1. the egg industry, 2. breeding.

The first point is fairly obvious, how the hens are kept, what happens after their months of laying (most end up on the table, so feeding the egg industry without crossing paths with the meat industry is pretty impossible).

The second is more complex, those of us with poultry are aware what effect mass production has on the bird. My ducks are a pekin/aylesbury mixes, and are from the egg industry- my youngest who recently started laying had already been running into difficulty, just recently she laid three eggs in 24 hours. Two of which were stuck and she needed calcium gluconate to get them out. She passed one egg, then the other within about 10 minutes. Any laying bird can run into difficulty, but when they are bred for such high intense egg production, it's really quite dangerous and exhausting for them.
If breeding were ethical, more for quality and health over quantity, I wouldn't have an issue with people keeping or breeding poultry for eating eggs, fertilised or not (as long as they weren't developing with embryos). I feed most of my eggs back to my ducks, but I also give some to family to reduce what they buy from the egg industry. Personally I dislike eggs so I don't eat them, which also means I can keep calling myself a vegan!

I hope that answers your curiosity if you were still curious

 

[BelovedBirds]

Just curious. How is your mouse? I raised a baby pack rat once. Although I had a goat dairy at the time, I fed him canned milk diluted five parts milk and one part water. I did this because I didn't think goat milk was nutrient dense enough for him. I would be interested in knowing how your mouse did. What kind of mouse is it?

I don't recall hearing anyone ever saying that vegans or anyone else needs milk or must have it for a balanced diet. Whoever said that was wrong. Some people don't have access to milk and some people can't stand it.

Just a comment. Removing dairy calves from their mothers so the milk can be used is not cruel. It is done for their health if nothing else. Bear in mind we have had a symbiotic relationship with cows going back centuries. Dairy cows are bred for dairy. A good high producing Holstein cow can produce 200 pounds or more of milk a day. A calf needs only between eight and ten pounds of milk per day. One gallon of milk weighs 8.5 pounds if you want to do the math. The calf is not being deprived at all.

You may or may not find this of interest. A neighbor of mine, due to illness, had to raise his dairy calves naturally one year. Meaning he left the calves on the cows and did not (because he couldn't) milk the cows. He ended up losing almost all of them, both cows and calves. The calves died of scours because of too much milk and the cows died of mastitis because they weren't milked out.

I never do know when to shut up. I will go away now. I did enjoy the discussion with you. Please do give me an update on your mouse. My pack rat made a fine pet. He was pretty too. I had him for a little more than two years. I miss him.

Thank you for asking! Sadly the mouse passed away after a couple days- he was a wild baby, I believe a field mouse. He had fur but was under 2 weeks and his eyes hadn't opened yet. Found in the rain-
He was a very sweet little thing and I did what I could- but in the end I believe he had a respiratory infection, and was very dehydrated. I used homemade electrolytes for him to try and get him hydrated, then 2 parts goats milk and 1 part electrolytes. I'm glad I tried to help him anyway! I spent hours attempting to nurse him to health over the course of two days, throughout night too but sadly it wasn't to be!

It's awesome about your pack rat! In my (less than popular) opinion, rats and mice make wonderful pets. They're sweeter than given credit for.

I have to disagree on the note about dairy cows, I do get that they have been bred for it and dont usually make good mothers... but the physical and emotional stress it puts on them to have a calf, lose them, and then produce large amounts of milk up until they are (usually) slaughtered, will always be cruel in my view. When I attended an agricultural college, I saw firsthand dairy production, which was free range and had the RSPCA pretty much on sight- and even then I hated what I saw and how they were kept and treated. I'm sure there are a number of homesteads that keep cows/goats for dairy, who consider the young and keep them happy and healthy, which I don't have as much of an issue with- perhaps I seem weak, but I don't think too much compassion is a bad thing! But yeah that's my opinion on it.
The comment I was disputing went something like "Vegans would be so much better off if they just had some dairy or egg in their diet" and came from a line of posts about vegans being brain damaged, and it being impossible to stay healthy as a vegan- Which was a little ridiculous.

I enjoyed this discussion too! Thank you for staying kind and everything!

 

[BelovedBirds]

That is a completely different topic. By far the worse thing for this planet is the number of human beings that occupy it and our consumption of it's resources. Until we address that situation, nothing will change, and it will only get worse over time as the numbers climb. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but that's the true elephant in the room.

No, I do agree with you. There are too many people, too many resources being used, too many animals being farmed- it's all linked and the population is definitely the root of it, I agree completely.

 

[SandyRiverChick]

If breeding were ethical, more for quality and health over quantity, I wouldn't have an issue with people keeping or breeding poultry for eating eggs, fertilised or not (as long as they weren't developing with embryos). I feed most of my eggs back to my ducks, but I also give some to family to reduce what they buy from the egg industry. Personally I dislike eggs so I don't eat them, which also means I can keep calling myself a vegan!

Indeed I appreciate that your response is more thought out with actual belief system behind it. Yet I STILL have to ask them WHY they won't eat the eggs from my little ethical farm because unlike you they probably do, I know they certainly DID before all of this, like eggs. But they WON'T now because just like you said, they can't wear the label of "vegan." I feel pretty fortunate that my parents labled me "Kris" and it ends there for me.