Vegetarian and/or vegan members of BYC!

[kstaven]

Quote:
Which brings me to a point I encountered when trying a wholesale shift in diet to see if it would aid me. Being on the other end of the spectrum (hyperinsulinism) a change in diet hospitalized me quickly. So I always recommend anyone making a marked change in diet to fully research the potential consequences and serious documented medical consequences associated with specific medical conditions and restrictive dietary protocols. This is one place where I found some authors making blanket statements that would lead one to believe a dietary lifestyle change would cure it all.

 

[SilverPhoenix]

Quote:
Not to start a debate in this thread, as it's specifically FOR vegetarian and vegan members to connect rather than for a debate on the subject, but if one has a core issue with taking life unless absolutely necessary, I wouldn't say their beliefs are based in "falsehoods and half truths" unless the assumption that eating animals kills them is somehow untrue.

I am not an animal welfarist by definition. I am fully aware that not every farm is an industrial farm. I'm aware that there are animal agriculturists out there who follow responsible environmental (as much as possible) and animal welfare practices. But for me, that does not change to core issue for me at all. I do not try to "convert" people, I don't say a word when others around me are consuming animal products, and frankly I'm sick of people with traditional diets automatically assuming that I am a misinformed, condescending, morally superior dolt simply because I have a different set of beliefs then them. THAT is very offensive to ME.... especially because I DO have a significant background observing and participating in animal agriculture, including on those small family farms everyone deems morally superior, and am sick of people telling me I don't have a realistic idea of the industry when I've seen it with my own eyes and participated in it with my own hands. I have witnessed first hand everything from the struggling small time farmer and his practices to the aftermath of the industrial giants; I do not go to PETA for my information.

Lest it come up, let's avoid the "but animals die as a result of plant agriculture" speil that the position "I don't like killing if I don't have to" tends to spawn, so we can avoid in the inevitable debate about animals killed for plant production alone vs. animals killed for plant AND animal production, includng animal feed production. I'm so tired of that argument because it misses the glaring point of what we can and can't reasonably avoid; "a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion." Frankly, there is a LOT I dislike about plant agriculture, and I do my best to avoid it by growing much of my own produce, foraging, getting food from local farms, etc. but in the case of animal agriculture, I can't avoid the very direct killing of an animal when I don't need it for survival. If I wish to avoid that, it's my perrogative.

I must say, I am a little disappointed that in a thread presumably geared towards uniting vegetarian/vegan BYCers, folks still feel the need to come in here and criticize our beliefs. I would not dream of wandering into the "Meat Birds Etc." forum and criticizing their practices. Despite all the hollering I always hear about how vegans and vegetarians are pushy, I don't think I've ever come across a meat eater who, upon finding out that I was vegan, didn't feel the need tell me all about why I'm so very misinformed and misguided.

I 100% agree with this post. In my field of work, guess what I do? I work directly with farmers! Yes, I do. I constantly call farmers to see if they will allow my group to take in their spent laying hens instead of sending them off to slaughter. Many of the farmers are very nice people, and they do treat their animals well from a welfare perspective. However, that doesn't change the fact for me that I believe killing animals for consumption is wrong--period! No matter how nicely the animals are treated.

Katy, I do not base my feelings on propaganda. I base my moral beliefs on my own feelings. Additionally, though, believe it or not, I know a great deal about animal agriculture, and much of my information comes from sites put up by the farmers themselves for other farmers to read. I like to know the other side, I really do, because I am working with the other side and want to be able to understand their viewpoints and where they're coming from. I have personally been to a lot of these small farms catching and loading up rescued hens. The farmers we work with are good people, but I still disagree with killing animals when it is not necessary for survival. I've even been to the World Ag Expo and collected a great deal of information of farming there. I like to know as much about farming as possible, and not just from an extreme perspective.

I am a bit disappointed that we still have people coming in to disagree as well. I stay well away from the meat bird threads. Most of my friends eat meat, and I don't say a word about it to them. I don't see a need to guilt or bully other people. That sort of behavior does not help animals or anyone, and just drives people crazy, no matter where on the spectrum of dietary choices you are!

 

[herfrds]

Quote:
Not to start a debate in this thread, as it's specifically FOR vegetarian and vegan members to connect rather than for a debate on the subject, but if one has a core issue with taking life unless absolutely necessary, I wouldn't say their beliefs are based in "falsehoods and half truths" unless the assumption that eating animals kills them is somehow untrue.

I am not an animal welfarist by definition. I am fully aware that not every farm is an industrial farm. I'm aware that there are animal agriculturists out there who follow responsible environmental (as much as possible) and animal welfare practices. But for me, that does not change to core issue for me at all. I do not try to "convert" people, I don't say a word when others around me are consuming animal products, and frankly I'm sick of people with traditional diets automatically assuming that I am a misinformed, condescending, morally superior dolt simply because I have a different set of beliefs then them. THAT is very offensive to ME.... especially because I DO have a significant background observing and participating in animal agriculture, including on those small family farms everyone deems morally superior, and am sick of people telling me I don't have a realistic idea of the industry when I've seen it with my own eyes and participated in it with my own hands. I have witnessed first hand everything from the struggling small time farmer and his practices to the aftermath of the industrial giants; I do not go to PETA for my information.

Lest it come up, let's avoid the "but animals die as a result of plant agriculture" speil that the position "I don't like killing if I don't have to" tends to spawn, so we can avoid in the inevitable debate about animals killed for plant production alone vs. animals killed for plant AND animal production, includng animal feed production. I'm so tired of that argument because it misses the glaring point of what we can and can't reasonably avoid; "a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion." Frankly, there is a LOT I dislike about plant agriculture, and I do my best to avoid it by growing much of my own produce, foraging, getting food from local farms, etc. but in the case of animal agriculture, I can't avoid the very direct killing of an animal when I don't need it for survival. If I wish to avoid that, it's my perrogative.

I must say, I am a little disappointed that in a thread presumably geared towards uniting vegetarian/vegan BYCers, folks still feel the need to come in here and criticize our beliefs. I would not dream of wandering into the "Meat Birds Etc." forum and criticizing their practices. Despite all the hollering I always hear about how vegans and vegetarians are pushy, I don't think I've ever come across a meat eater who, upon finding out that I was vegan, didn't feel the need tell me all about why I'm so very misinformed and misguided.

I 100% agree with this post. In my field of work, guess what I do? I work directly with farmers! Yes, I do. I constantly call farmers to see if they will allow my group to take in their spent laying hens instead of sending them off to slaughter. Many of the farmers are very nice people, and they do treat their animals well from a welfare perspective. However, that doesn't change the fact for me that I believe killing animals for consumption is wrong--period! No matter how nicely the animals are treated.
Katy, I do not base my feelings on propaganda. I base my moral beliefs on my own feelings. Additionally, though, believe it or not, I know a great deal about animal agriculture, and much of my information comes from sites put up by the farmers themselves for other farmers to read. I like to know the other side, I really do, because I am working with the other side and want to be able to understand their viewpoints and where they're coming from. I have personally been to a lot of these small farms catching and loading up rescued hens. The farmers we work with are good people, but I still disagree with killing animals when it is not necessary for survival. I've even been to the World Ag Expo and collected a great deal of information of farming there. I like to know as much about farming as possible, and not just from an extreme perspective.

I am a bit disappointed that we still have people coming in to disagree as well. I stay well away from the meat bird threads. Most of my friends eat meat, and I don't say a word about it to them. I don't see a need to guilt or bully other people. That sort of behavior does not help animals or anyone, and just drives people crazy, no matter where on the spectrum of dietary choices you are!

Less then 40% of land in this country can grow a crop, the rest is for raising livestock.
So just wondering how are we going to feed an expanding population on this little amount of land?
Especially if everyone stopped eating meat?

 

[GallusGal]

I really don't feel like having a drawn out debate on this as it is abundantly apparent that we're not going to see eye to eye here, and all it is going to do is muck up a thread intended to allow veg*n BYCers to connect. But I will say this: I find it vastly insulting to human ingenuity to suggest that we couldn't feed the US population if we attempted to grow crops on the land currently used to raise crops for livestock, and potentially even on the "unusable" land livestock are being reared on themselves (I always question unsuable, as some very hardy crops like amaranth thrive under similar conditions as the grass and weeds covering your average pasture). I know a number of people who grow enough vegetables in the windows of their city apartments to never need to buy vegetables from the grocer year round. Given our many technological advances in plant agriculture, I somehow think that if we can find a way to grow enough corn and soy to feed 10 billion+ animals slaughtered annually in the US, creating a fraction of the edible poundage of meat for every pound of grain put in (industry's own data backs this), we could find a way to grow slightly better crops for a significantly smaller US human population.

The land we bought our house on used to be used to grow corn, and considering that over 60% of corn grown in the US goes into livestock feed, it's a fair guess that our land may have been for that use. That same land has proven itself very capable of growing a wide variety of fruits and vegetables very efficiently; we grow figs, peaches, cantelopes, squash, beans, tomatoes, carrots, greens, and more. Using just a small garden, we have enough food for us and our large population of animals. We plan on making an even bigger garden next year and selling some of our produce.

One thing I think we CAN agree on: more people need to get involved in feeding themselves instead of assuming that food comes from shiny packages in the grocery store. I think lawns are the biggest waste of space in this country, closely followed by empty windows. Most people can produce at least some kind of food for themselves if they have the gumption, and a bit more autonomy on the part of the US population would mean less demand for industrial agricultural methods (plant and animal) that are not sustainable in the long run and are having a very devastating impact on our environment.

A final observation: our thread has focused around people stating why they are vegan/vegetarian, exchanging some dietary advice, telling stories, etc. Folks are still feeling the need to come in here, start debates, challenge our lifestyle, call our beliefs ignorant and posts offensive. The counterthread you created involves many folks directly bashing vegans/vegetarians, calling them "crazies" and "delusional" and "hypocritical." How many of us have posted there starting a debate or spouting off about how offended we are to be lumped in with "the 0.0001%"? I think I'm the only vegan who posted in there, and I AGREED that I dislike how farmers are inaccurately portrayed as deliberately cruel and abusive by many AR groups. At any rate, for everything I always hear about how pushy and condescending and confrontational vegans and vegetarians are, I find it curious that we're the ones having to continually justify and defend ourselves in this thread.


Getting the thread back on track, I'm curious to know how many of our veggie board members are currently growing produce for themselves! This is my first time having a real outdoor garden; back home we had a small yard surrounded by pine trees, leading to very acidic soil that most crops didn't thrive in (or if they did they tasted VERY bad). I did grow some native food: dandelion, plantain, violet, and raspberry, but I could never have much of a variety and resorted to window gardening for any vegetables I might like. Now that I moved, I can have a real garden and I love it! Last season we didn't get to grow too much because we were so busy settling in, but got to enjoy peaches, figs, cantelopes, tomatoes, and beans. I especially love the figs; it's a great thing to work hard on a hot day and be able to sit in the shade of a tree that will also give you calories in hydration in the form of fruit. This year I am adding more crops and we're already off to a good start, with seedlings thriving thus far - not to mention the wild edibles growing all over our property. Early spring has brought all kinds of leafy greens and flowers to enjoy, plus a ton of wild strawberries. Yum!

 

[Katy]

Quote:
Sorry, but I have to address your comment about using land currently used for livestock production as cropland.

Despite what you would like to believe there is a vast majority of land in use as grazing land that would never make good cropland. Almost 500 of our acres is pure sand. It is pasture ground....period. Native grasses are the only crop that can grow there without irrigation or a tremendous amount of fertilizers which would basically run straight thru to our aquifer and pollute the water.

Do you truely think the vast amounts of grazing land in the western states could ever be used as anything other than livestock grazing? If you do, you need to make a trip out to the mountains and educate yourself.

 

[GallusGal]

Actually, I was referring primarily to land used to raise CROPS for livestock (I referenced this a few times) - not pasture land. But I did say "potentially" because I also do not feel that 100% of all pasture land is completely useless for growing, which is an argument I routinely hear. Much of the west? Probably, yeah. Frankly a lot of it isn't the greatest to be raising lifestock on, ecologically speaking. However, people seem to forget that a) not all livestock in the US are cattle, and not all US cattle are pasture raised and b) not all cattle are raised on land that is utterly useless for any other purpose. I grew up in NY and upstate NY does quite a lot of cattle raising... on excellent, fertile, rich soil. I see the same down here in much of Alabama.

Frankly though, I find the whole debate very silly since the whole United States is not about to go vegan. We're essentially debating the practicality of something that isn't going to happen. I simply wanted to point out that the argument that there's no way we could possibly feed a vegetarian nation is a little bit silly considering the ammount of perfectly good crop land currently devoted to growing crops for livestock, ethanol, plant plastics, and other purposes that don't directly feed people. As I already mentioned, I realize that the type of crops grown for these purposes are not the same as crops grown to feed humans. But clearly crops can be grown in these locations. And heck, plants don't even need to be grown outdoors. People make big beautiful edible gardens on their patios.

I'm not naive enough to say a total paradigm shift in food production would be simple or easy or free of complications. I definitely understand that there would be flaws and failings. But I also think it's silly to act like a person's choice to not eat meat is invalid because we're not 100% certain we could feed the world on a vegetarian diet. To me, that is like saying it is invalid to buy fair trade chocolate because the world chocolate demand might not be able to be met by fair trade policies.

 

[EweSheep]

I don't know about my hubby and not sure what to call him either a vegetarian or vegan.

He has become PB (peanut butter) eater since he was around seven to nine years old. He said he lost taste in meat which he used to eat hamburgers and FF day in and day out. So he is now 47 and will be 48 years old so that is a long time with this diet.

He eats peanut butter sandwiches with crunchies (potato chips or Chex/Cheerios cereal) NO jelly of any kind. Grilled cheese sandwiches. Any white bread and cinnamon rolls. No wheat or brown bread of any kind. Plain or unflavored potato chips and plain FF. No fruits or veggies or any kind of meat. Like desserts as long it is there is NO nuts, fruits or raisins in them, unfruited/un nut cookies and cakes. Dairy products would be the once a week chocolate 100% milk, Cheese Whiz on crackers. More like processed cheese he likes while I like the REAL cheese.

Eats a very high carbo diet you might say. When we go into restuaruants many waitresses would say we do have a veg menu but he does not eat salads or beans of any kind. No greens. Just grilled cheese sandwich and FF please.

Is there a "label" for this type of vegetarian peanut butter eating folks like him?

 

[GallusGal]

Junkatarian, perhaps?

I guess your hubby is technically vegetarian if he does not eat meat, but it sounds like his diet is based in taste preference rather than ideology or health concerns (the two main reasons people go veg).

 

[EweSheep]

I love that "Junkatarian" What a hoot!

Even all of his blood work a few years ago was passing with flying colors. I have NO idea how much his body can cope without any greens or necessary vitamins needed from meat that he can not get from peanut butter and grilled cheese sandwiches.

I know he is very fugal in what he orders and eats, most of it is "cheap". He does enjoy seeing me eat a juicy steak dinner! Whatever makes his lady happy, he is happy too!

I go thru about four tubs of peanut butter a month and four doz bread a week for him. Once or twice a week we would eat out, of course, grilled cheese sandwiches.

Someone mentioned about he better watch out for his insulin. He did have a chlosterol count of 132. Dang! I wished mine was that low but I love my red meat too much.

 

[SilverPhoenix]

Quote:
Amazing that he survives on that diet and even seems to do well! Does he take a multivitamin to help his body? I like the term "junkatarian," that's great! I must admit to sometimes eating a semi-junky diet, but I'm getting better about that as I get older (older, ha, I'm twenty-three) and grow to understand nutrition better and become more concerned with the effects of food on my body.

GallusGal, I want to grow some vegetables and edibles, but haven't gotten started yet. Any recommendations of particularly easy to grow things? My mom and I are total animal people and not so great with plants. My mom keeps buying tomato plants and forgetting to plant them, and then they die.

I've heard giving duck water to plants makes them thrive, though, and I certainly have plenty of that around! Along with chicken poop, of course.

I would love to start a little garden, so maybe my mom and I will discuss that soon and see about getting it going.

We have an awesome garden going at my work, though! We have a six hundred acre sanctuary here so there is plenty of space to grow some plants. The garden just got started, but one of my co-workers is a master horticulturist, and he's doing an awesome job building little greenhouses, planting things, and so on. It will be fun to watch the garden as it grows. I'm hoping to help with it and get some fresh veggies as a result!