Vegetarian chickens...What?!

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Well, like I said though - the guy down the street from me is local - and I wouldn't buy beef from him if he was the last guy on earth selling it. So I doubt locally grown things are much better than the average, the perk really is that you're supporting people who live by you. that's a good thing for local economies, but does not automatically transfer to the local people nutritionally or otherwise.


i've worked on factory dairy farms (or factory farms from my perspective and on the scale of farms in my region), so i have a pretty good idea of what's involved: the almighty dollar and to heck with the animals or the groundwater.

Not a fair representation of big ag in my opinion, and I'm a big ag inspector for the state. Farmers, whether running a small homestead or a large multi-national corporation, will generally do what is expected of them. So if your state has groundwater protection laws, and they do I assure you as the EPA runs ALL CAFO groundwater rules, then they comply with the minimum standards. Sometimes the standards are too lenient and sometiems the standards are outrageous, for instance the storing of hay in the "production" area is considered to be an avenue for groundwater contamination, yet this ruling only applies to CAFO's not ranchers. What is the difference? There isn't any - it is a stupid rule and we all know it. Point being - there are a ton of Regs out there and for the most part the CAFOs do their part. When they don't they get fined.

And, as I posted before, I have a multi-national farm who just spend millions of dollars improving the living conditions of their animals just because they wanted to. No one made them do that - things above and beyond Regs should be commended, but generally speaking no one pays attention to the good things coming from big Ag, only the bad.​
 
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Well, like I said though - the guy down the street from me is local - and I wouldn't buy beef from him if he was the last guy on earth selling it. So I doubt locally grown things are much better than the average, the perk really is that you're supporting people who live by you. that's a good thing for local economies, but does not automatically transfer to the local people nutritionally or otherwise.

right, but buying local allows you to choose from whom to buy and have that be an informed choice. that was more of my point.

as for the other, we'll have to agree to disagree. both farmers i worked for were "family farmers" who'd expanded beyond all reason and i saw appalling things while milking and tending calves for both operations.
 
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Yes that is a good point! There is another family raising beef about 5 miles away from the gross guy - now them, I'd buy from!

as for the other, we'll have to agree to disagree. both farmers i worked for were "family farmers" who'd expanded beyond all reason and i saw appalling things while milking and tending calves for both operations.

I think the problem is that raising animals for food has many apalling things about it. Some people can look beyond and see that things can be necessary and some can't. Now I am defiantely not sticking up for bad producers, just the general reputation of those who try their best.​
 
Here is the response I received from Egglands Best about their vegetarian chickens.

The number one key to success in egg production is to keep your hens in optimum health, so they will be very efficient in their conversion of feed to eggs and will be very productive. Here is an overview of the different types of housing used by Eggland’s Best and the rest of the egg industry.



Eggland's Best has three different products with three different management systems. Each has advantages and disadvantages as far as bird health and welfare are concerned. Our regular Eggland's Best eggs in the white carton are from caged hens and the Eggland's Best Cage-Free and Eggland's Best Organic are cage free. Eggland's Best Organic are also allowed outdoor access (free range), as environmental conditions permit. (The USDA Organic Seal tells consumers that Eggland’s Best eggs are certified organic by agencies accredited by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). In order to qualify for USDA organic certification, the grains used for our hens’ diets must be produced on land that has been free from the use of toxic and persistent chemical pesticides and fertilizers for a minimum of three years. Genetically engineered crops are not permitted and hens must be maintained without hormones, antibiotics, and other intrusive drugs. Eggland’s Best Organic eggs exceed USDA organic standards of production.) The cage-free environment offers greater freedom for movement. Cage free and organic are the most rapidly growing segments of the egg industry. Cages are still the most prevalent housing system, since they provide the best dietary control, sanitation, ventilation, and freedom from dust and ammonia, plus the lowest mortality rate. Cages now provide significantly more space than they did a few years ago, and I am sure some of the web site photos of crowded hens were from years ago.



The free range environment has visual appeal and certainly offers greater freedom to roam. It also permits exposure to adverse weather conditions, disease-carrying wild birds, soil-borne and insect-borne diseases and parasites, and predators (foxes, hawks, cats, dogs, etc.). For any housing system used, farmers will make every effort to keep their birds healthy and comfortable, and also to ensure that the product they market is safe and sanitary. The survival of their business is dependent on maintaining healthy and sanitary practices, so it will always be a high priority.



This is what a cage free facility is set up like. Hens can roam anywhere within the 65’ x 400’ barn. Organic hens are also required by USDA to have outdoor runs.




Organic hens are required by USDA to have outdoor access, in addition to the cage free housing shown above.



Sanitation factor is a very important reason why the cage system has persisted. Having birds walk and peck in each other’s manure will always present a sanitation challenge. Hens are much more prone to pecking each other when they are continually making new acquaintances in the cage free environment and are challenging for dominance, and it is much more difficult to escape the pecking from the masses if a hen is injured. Hens placed in cages at the same time and at the same age, quickly establish a social order and do not challenge each other to continually re-define the social hierarchy. This is the main reason why cage free hens must have the tip of the beak blunted, whereas it is not necessary for caged hens. Mortality for caged hens runs about 6%, compared to 12-20% for cage free and 15-40% for free range.



Brown egg laying hens are generally used in cage free and organic egg production, partly because of the “natural” appeal of brown-shelled eggs, but also because the hens are less excitable. White egg laying hens are very flighty. They can spook easily in a cage free environment and are at high risk of piling in corners when disturbed by thunder, etc. Cages work well for white layers, because they prevent large masses of hens from piling and suffocating.





Alice Taylor
Consumer Services Specialist
Eggland’s Best, Inc.
1400 S. Trooper Road, Suite 201
Jeffersonville, PA 19403
Phone: 610-265-6500
Toll Free: 800-922-3447
Fax: 610-265-8380
[email protected]
www.eggland.com
 
Some access to the outside means a 4x4 pen for 20, 000 birds.

I've even seen some companies try to tell you chickens don't want to go outside. Well if you have this tiny pen and have to fight to get in and out for a breathe of fresh air you might give up too.
 
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While I highly doubt that the "outdoor access"mentioned here by Eggland's Best is anything we'd consider acceptable - I also doubt any sane person (or corporation trying to make a buck) would attempt to give 20,000 chickens access to a 4x4 run.
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If you don't like their methods don't buy the eggs - people on this forum have choices - not everyone has choices.

I actually thing Eggland's response was pretty accurate as to what producers are up against. Should we fault them for trying to cut down on mortalities or for attempting to control their dietary intake? Maybe - maybe not but like I said - rasing animals for food has many things about it which turn people off or elicit an emotional response - myself included - but some of these things are necessary so that all people can afford animal products at a reasonable price.

Everyone is free to draw their own line and refuse to cross.
 
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WOW I'm waaaaaay below those numbers! We free range over 300 and may lose 2 in a year.

That is a pretty incredible stastic.
 

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