It is nice to see someone say, "...so appreciate..." All to often our replies go unanswered and we are left wondering...
Very sick young hen- no idea how to treat
- Thread starter gegebranton
- Start date
X2. Let us know what happens. If you get a necropsy, we always appreciate it if people post their final reports. It really helps us all to learn. So sorry about your hen.
- Thread starter
- #13
gegebranton
In the Brooder
- Jan 18, 2019
- 8
- 14
- 18
Here is a video of Lace this morning. I just got off the phone with Western Animal Disease Diagnostic Labortory in Arden, NC (Asheville), and the doctor was super helpful and does believe it is Marek’s disease based on symptoms.
Just to circle back on some of the other questions posed, we feed her organic laying hen pellets from Tractor Supply, and she has never laid an egg, nor is she egg bound. I am posting the video just in case anyone has any other idea what it could be if not Marek’s ( she was vaccinated ). And again, thank you so so much for the feedback.
Great video. Is that lump on her left neck firm? Tumors are also a sign of Mareks, though many tumors inside on the organs and nerves can be very small.
Sorry about your pullet. She is beautiful. I am dealing with a hen who looks exactly like that. She is 7 years old and also wa vaccinated for Mareks as a day old. I have never seen Mareks in my flock, so I am contemplating a necropsy just to find out for sure what it is. There are several strains of Mareks, and the vaccine only protects against one type, as afar as I know.
Knowing when to pull the plug is difficult, especially since she is eating eagerly. Mine is so food motivated, that she has been running out of my coop, tumbling, wings out to balance, and taking a few steps backwards. @rebrascora may chime in with advice. She has been treating some members of her flock for over 4 years, and is a good resource.
Sorry about your pullet. She is beautiful. I am dealing with a hen who looks exactly like that. She is 7 years old and also wa vaccinated for Mareks as a day old. I have never seen Mareks in my flock, so I am contemplating a necropsy just to find out for sure what it is. There are several strains of Mareks, and the vaccine only protects against one type, as afar as I know.
Knowing when to pull the plug is difficult, especially since she is eating eagerly. Mine is so food motivated, that she has been running out of my coop, tumbling, wings out to balance, and taking a few steps backwards. @rebrascora may chime in with advice. She has been treating some members of her flock for over 4 years, and is a good resource.
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This is so sad 
She is beautiful!
I will be interested to hear what Rebrascora has to say also. If this is what Marek's looks like, I don't know how people manage to keep it in their flock and still have hearts intact, it must be so very difficult to watch your little lady going through this. Not a very uplifting response I know, I'm sorry. I am just trying to imagine finding one of my little ones like this. And you are taking such good care of her. At least if you have to let her go - her final days were loving.
She is beautiful!I will be interested to hear what Rebrascora has to say also. If this is what Marek's looks like, I don't know how people manage to keep it in their flock and still have hearts intact, it must be so very difficult to watch your little lady going through this. Not a very uplifting response I know, I'm sorry. I am just trying to imagine finding one of my little ones like this. And you are taking such good care of her. At least if you have to let her go - her final days were loving.
Hi
I am really sorry to see your pullet so incapacitated and yes that is consistent with a bad attack of pretty classic neurological Marek's although I would still encourage you to get a necropsy to confirm if/when she passes. I have had one come back from almost as bad as that after several weeks of supportive care and as long as she is keen to eat and drink and you are prepared to help and support her, there is hope, but once they lose interest in food, I make that the trigger point for euthanizing.
It is very hard to watch them floundering around like that and a sling can be helpful to keep them in an upright position. My very first fatal case of Marek's was like this. She would push her legs out when she fell causing her to roll onto her side or sometimes her back and twist her neck to try to keep her head upright. She has a couple of tumours which were more in the muscle of her thigh and abdomen rather than external lumps like yours, so they were not really obvious until I cut her open after I euthanized her. That was my first loss and the first time I had deliberately killed any animal and it was very hard and I cried a lot, but since then there have been some joyous recoveries as well as other losses and you learn to do what you can to support them and end it for them when there is no longer any hope. I do not think it causes them pain when they have paralysis like this but they are frightened and frustrated as we would be if we woke up one morning and could not control our bodies.
I am a bit sceptical about small scale breeders who say they vaccinate for Marek's. The logistics of it are complex and expensive and 3 weeks of strict biosecurity needs to be practiced after vaccination which is difficult to achieve in most back yard settings. It is easy to say that they were vaccinated but hard to prove and since the vaccine is known to be leaky and not 100% effective that provides a get out clause if any of the birds they sell do develop the disease. Even if you buy young chicks that really have been vaccinated.... and yours may have been.... most people don't know to practice strict biosecurity themselves when they take the chicks home or understand how easily the virus can be transferred to them. Personally I have significant reservations about the Marek's vaccine that is available to small scale breeders and prefer to try to breed for resistance and manage my flock to keep stress levels as low as possible to minimize outbreaks in those that are infected.
Anyway, it really is a personal decision about when to euthanize. Some people do it as soon as they suspect Marek's which may be the most sensible decision to prevent them shedding the virus into the flock environment and building up a reservoir of infected material which can survive for very long periods of time in buildings etc as well as travel on the wind, your clothes hair skin and footwear. I just cannot bring myself to cull a bird that is still fighting the disease and having had some quite miraculous successes, I support until they lose interest in food.
The things I have found beneficial are a poultry vitamin supplement to boost their immune and neurological system, offering them quality treats like scrambled egg and and a little fish/meat/liver if they will eat it and fermented chick crumbs to help keep their digestive system healthy but if all else fails give them whatever they will eat, even if it is bread soaked in gravy. Trying to make them eat things they don't want, stresses them and you and stress makes them worse. Warm sunshine and grass and the company of other chickens are the most beneficial things but at this time of year, two of those can be in short supply and keeping them near your other chickens risks spreading the disease although it is likely that your other chickens were exposed at the same time as this bird and they are either resistant or the disease is in it's dormant phase with them and will emerge at some point in the future when they are stressed.
If you think of it like the human cold sore Herpes virus. A large percentage of the population are carriers of the virus but you don't know who has it until they have an outbreak. Not everyone has an outbreak at the same time but certain things are more likely to trigger an outbreak. People are not infectious until they are actually experiencing an outbreak, so most of the time they can be intimate with people and not infect them, but during an outbreak they are infectious and actively shedding the virus. Marek's is caused by a Herpes virus too that acts in a similar way. Dormant phases when they are not contagious and you don't know who has it and who hasn't, then a stressor triggers an outbreak and they become infectious. Unfortunately Marek's is shed via dander dust which is inhaled by other birds to become infected, so much more easily contracted than cold sores, especially when you consider how dusty coops get with dander and how birds flap their wings to get up and down onto roosts and stir up that dust.
Added to that, an outbreak can be as subtle as a bird being unable to keep one eyelid fully open or as dramatic as the debilitating paralysis that your bird is displaying and everything in between and it can get better as suddenly as it came on or take months to improve or cause sudden death or a slow lingering death. It is no wonder that it is rarely correctly diagnosed.
I really am sorry that you are dealing with this because I know just how heart breaking it is and it may well get worse (ie other birds suffer from it) before it starts to get better As others have said, I am 4 years down the line with it and I just lost a 6+yr old bird to it that survived an outbreak last winter, but keeping my fingers crossed that my 6month old pullets remain healthy. They have been laying for 3 weeks now, so I am hopeful that they are passed the critical hormone surge trigger at point of lay.
I am really sorry to see your pullet so incapacitated and yes that is consistent with a bad attack of pretty classic neurological Marek's although I would still encourage you to get a necropsy to confirm if/when she passes. I have had one come back from almost as bad as that after several weeks of supportive care and as long as she is keen to eat and drink and you are prepared to help and support her, there is hope, but once they lose interest in food, I make that the trigger point for euthanizing.
It is very hard to watch them floundering around like that and a sling can be helpful to keep them in an upright position. My very first fatal case of Marek's was like this. She would push her legs out when she fell causing her to roll onto her side or sometimes her back and twist her neck to try to keep her head upright. She has a couple of tumours which were more in the muscle of her thigh and abdomen rather than external lumps like yours, so they were not really obvious until I cut her open after I euthanized her. That was my first loss and the first time I had deliberately killed any animal and it was very hard and I cried a lot, but since then there have been some joyous recoveries as well as other losses and you learn to do what you can to support them and end it for them when there is no longer any hope. I do not think it causes them pain when they have paralysis like this but they are frightened and frustrated as we would be if we woke up one morning and could not control our bodies.
I am a bit sceptical about small scale breeders who say they vaccinate for Marek's. The logistics of it are complex and expensive and 3 weeks of strict biosecurity needs to be practiced after vaccination which is difficult to achieve in most back yard settings. It is easy to say that they were vaccinated but hard to prove and since the vaccine is known to be leaky and not 100% effective that provides a get out clause if any of the birds they sell do develop the disease. Even if you buy young chicks that really have been vaccinated.... and yours may have been.... most people don't know to practice strict biosecurity themselves when they take the chicks home or understand how easily the virus can be transferred to them. Personally I have significant reservations about the Marek's vaccine that is available to small scale breeders and prefer to try to breed for resistance and manage my flock to keep stress levels as low as possible to minimize outbreaks in those that are infected.
Anyway, it really is a personal decision about when to euthanize. Some people do it as soon as they suspect Marek's which may be the most sensible decision to prevent them shedding the virus into the flock environment and building up a reservoir of infected material which can survive for very long periods of time in buildings etc as well as travel on the wind, your clothes hair skin and footwear. I just cannot bring myself to cull a bird that is still fighting the disease and having had some quite miraculous successes, I support until they lose interest in food.
The things I have found beneficial are a poultry vitamin supplement to boost their immune and neurological system, offering them quality treats like scrambled egg and and a little fish/meat/liver if they will eat it and fermented chick crumbs to help keep their digestive system healthy but if all else fails give them whatever they will eat, even if it is bread soaked in gravy. Trying to make them eat things they don't want, stresses them and you and stress makes them worse. Warm sunshine and grass and the company of other chickens are the most beneficial things but at this time of year, two of those can be in short supply and keeping them near your other chickens risks spreading the disease although it is likely that your other chickens were exposed at the same time as this bird and they are either resistant or the disease is in it's dormant phase with them and will emerge at some point in the future when they are stressed.
If you think of it like the human cold sore Herpes virus. A large percentage of the population are carriers of the virus but you don't know who has it until they have an outbreak. Not everyone has an outbreak at the same time but certain things are more likely to trigger an outbreak. People are not infectious until they are actually experiencing an outbreak, so most of the time they can be intimate with people and not infect them, but during an outbreak they are infectious and actively shedding the virus. Marek's is caused by a Herpes virus too that acts in a similar way. Dormant phases when they are not contagious and you don't know who has it and who hasn't, then a stressor triggers an outbreak and they become infectious. Unfortunately Marek's is shed via dander dust which is inhaled by other birds to become infected, so much more easily contracted than cold sores, especially when you consider how dusty coops get with dander and how birds flap their wings to get up and down onto roosts and stir up that dust.
Added to that, an outbreak can be as subtle as a bird being unable to keep one eyelid fully open or as dramatic as the debilitating paralysis that your bird is displaying and everything in between and it can get better as suddenly as it came on or take months to improve or cause sudden death or a slow lingering death. It is no wonder that it is rarely correctly diagnosed.
I really am sorry that you are dealing with this because I know just how heart breaking it is and it may well get worse (ie other birds suffer from it) before it starts to get better As others have said, I am 4 years down the line with it and I just lost a 6+yr old bird to it that survived an outbreak last winter, but keeping my fingers crossed that my 6month old pullets remain healthy. They have been laying for 3 weeks now, so I am hopeful that they are passed the critical hormone surge trigger at point of lay.
My God, Rebrascora, my heart goes out to you - and your flock!! But also, what an amazing person you are. Much Respect.
Thank you but I am not sure I am any different to anyone else. You have to learn to work with the hand you are dealt. If your flock gets Marek's, you have to learn to cope with it. You can't just walk away or wave a magic wand and make it disappear and even if you decide to cull all your chickens.... not something I could consider...it is still silently lurking ready to strike when/if you restock.
I need to feel like I have some control so I researched lots and did necropsies myself on every bird I lost and learned lots from people here at BYC and added that to my own experience, which is slightly different than some of the hotter strains that are often diagnosed in the USA.
Seeing young birds pitifully incapacitated like this one is without doubt the hardest part (well euthanizing them is) but there are many other cases where the bird has a limp or a dropped wing or goes a bit wobbly or just fails to thrive due to a compromised immune system. Having witnessed some spectacular recoveries from outbreaks spurs you on and gives you hope. It is a roller coaster ride and I know how bleak I felt when I first got the diagnosis, but there have been ups as well as downs and I want people to be aware of that and give them a little hope,particularly in these early days of despair.
Most of what I read when I first researched was totally depressing but I think that is because it is usually the most aggressive strains that kill multiple birds that are diagnosed and documented so you mostly read about the very worst cases. There are lots of lower levels with this disease that never get diagnosed and it is my opinion that many birds that are thought to have a vitamin deficiency actually have Marek's but either spontaneously recover from an outbreak and people assume it was the vitamin supplement they used or the vitamins boost the immune system to fight the disease. Not saying vitamin deficiency doesn't occur but I think it is much less common than people are happy to believe unless they have been providing an inappropriate diet to their flock.
- Thread starter
- #19
gegebranton
In the Brooder
- Jan 18, 2019
- 8
- 14
- 18
I had a farmer friend who put her down for me today, so I did not have to do it. Lots of learning in this chicken business!
Thanks for the info about various strains of Mareks.
Oh I am very sorry for your loss. I know it was a hard choice to make. Are you planning on getting a necropsy on her body? If so, please give us an update on the findings.
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