Viable treatment for Marek's Disease.

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Hi everyone, I have a dutch bantam that has a wry neck not responding to vitamins, so I guess it is Marek's. She is still eating but drinking is more difficult because of her twisted neck.

She comes from a Marek's positive flock. She escaped 6 months ago, but a neighbor found her a couple of days ago and returned her to me. Here is the story:

Thread 'Please help, chicken escapee returned after 6 months. Quarantine?' https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...e-returned-after-6-months-quarantine.1620382/

So I got Chinese skullcap capsules, from Solgar. The label says Raw Scutellaria root powder 370mg, Scutellaria Root extract 2:1 75mg. How much should I give my hen? She is tiny, and weighs about a pound (500g).

I hope I can save her, it would be sad that she returned after so long only to die.
Thanks in advance!
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You need a very specific compound from the Chinese Skullcap. 85% Baicalin. This is very low and would be useful only as a preventative dose daily.

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

If this happens on a hen would you be able to actually feel normal size eggs in her abdominal cavity?

That's a different condition called internal laying.

 

[RubyLady]

We've located valid research to pin down how long Marek's actually does survive outside a host.

4-8 months at room temperature or above. Under 38° it survives indefinitely.

Yeah... that kinda sucks for people up north, but it clears up the reason behind the 'Years' myth.

Do you have a link to the research. That's really fantastic!

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Do you have a link to the research. That's really fantastic!

Not saved. It's posted somewhere on my FB page.

 

[microchick]

I haven't read all of this thread but enough to get the general gist of the subject.

As many know, I've been dealing with MD in my flock since a year after I started my flock in 2016. I'm all in for herbology. Use it myself personally so I read what I read with some interest.

I'm also from Missouri so Show Me! If Chinese Skullcap can put it into remission my main question would be what is the long term effect? Surviving the disease's initial infection doesn't mean that the disease is licked. It will lie dormant in the chicken until it emerges at a later date in the form of visceral tumors, organ cancers, neurological problems, wasting, and finally death for the chicken. Has any testing results proven that the disease is truly being controlled and in fact isn't just being knocked into remission to pop up at a later date? And by date, I mean have chickens dosed with Chinese Skullcap survived 4-5 years without succumbing to Marek's Disease.

Keep in mind that MD is basically a virulent form of Herpes. Think of it this way. Most of us have been exposed to the Herpes virus. In humans it causes everything from cold sores to cervical cancer. It can also manifest itself as Ocular Herpes in humans. Raise your hand if you have ever had a cold sore. Yeah, lots of us have. Now here's the thing. Cold sores don't last forever and they don't kill humans. the cold sore virus (herpes simplex, HSV-1) rears it's ugly head on occasion usually when the victim is about to embark on something stressful, does it's dirty work and then goes back into hiding. Same with Herpes Zoster, the virus that causes chicken pox. It hits kids usually, they break out in a hellacious rash, it goes away, kiddo goes back to normal until....wait for it.....they are 55 years old and suddenly they have shingles. You see my point.

Okay, you can make it go into remission but how long can you keep it suppressed before it surfaces again? I don' think this is a cure until it's proven that it will not resurface at a later date. And if it truly does, it will have a huge impact on both human and avian medicine.

Until then, I'd have to see blood studies that show zero virus load in chickens treated with SC that are in showing no visible signs of the virus. Plus how it affects the chicken if prophylactic doses are withheld. What about birds that are carriers but resistant?

I can't help but wonder if people aren't seeing a natural remission that birds can experience after the initial infection of the disease only for it to come out of remission at a later date.

Still. It is nice to think that there may be something out there that can stop this horrible disease in both birds and in humans. In the meantime, remember, birds with MD are and remain carriers even if they survive the disease and are resistant. So please treat them as positive close your flock if you are experiencing Marek's.

Blessings to all.

 

[RubyLady]

We've located valid research to pin down how long Marek's actually does survive outside a host.

4-8 months at room temperature or above. Under 38° it survives indefinitely.

Yeah... that kinda sucks for people up north, but it clears up the reason behind the 'Years' myth.

I haven't read all of this thread but enough to get the general gist of the subject.

As many know, I've been dealing with MD in my flock since a year after I started my flock in 2016. I'm all in for herbology. Use it myself personally so I read what I read with some interest.

I'm also from Missouri so Show Me! If Chinese Skullcap can put it into remission my main question would be what is the long term effect? Surviving the disease's initial infection doesn't mean that the disease is licked. It will lie dormant in the chicken until it emerges at a later date in the form of visceral tumors, organ cancers, neurological problems, wasting, and finally death for the chicken. Has any testing results proven that the disease is truly being controlled and in fact isn't just being knocked into remission to pop up at a later date? And by date, I mean have chickens dosed with Chinese Skullcap survived 4-5 years without succumbing to Marek's Disease.

Keep in mind that MD is basically a virulent form of Herpes. Think of it this way. Most of us have been exposed to the Herpes virus. In humans it causes everything from cold sores to cervical cancer. It can also manifest itself as Ocular Herpes in humans. Raise your hand if you have ever had a cold sore. Yeah, lots of us have. Now here's the thing. Cold sores don't last forever and they don't kill humans. the cold sore virus (herpes simplex, HSV-1) rears it's ugly head on occasion usually when the victim is about to embark on something stressful, does it's dirty work and then goes back into hiding. Same with Herpes Zoster, the virus that causes chicken pox. It hits kids usually, they break out in a hellacious rash, it goes away, kiddo goes back to normal until....wait for it.....they are 55 years old and suddenly they have shingles. You see my point.

Okay, you can make it go into remission but how long can you keep it suppressed before it surfaces again? I don' think this is a cure until it's proven that it will not resurface at a later date. And if it truly does, it will have a huge impact on both human and avian medicine.

Until then, I'd have to see blood studies that show zero virus load in chickens treated with SC that are in showing no visible signs of the virus. Plus how it affects the chicken if prophylactic doses are withheld. What about birds that are carriers but resistant?

I can't help but wonder if people aren't seeing a natural remission that birds can experience after the initial infection of the disease only for it to come out of remission at a later date.

Still. It is nice to think that there may be something out there that can stop this horrible disease in both birds and in humans. In the meantime, remember, birds with MD are and remain carriers even if they survive the disease and are resistant. So please treat them as positive close your flock if you are experiencing Marek's.

Blessings to all.

This is a very good point. We had a handful of our hens contract Marek's last summer, a few died, others never showed any signs so I'm figuring they didn't contract it or was able to fight it off without my noticing mild symptoms, and one who had a super mild case and recovered is still around and doing fine. I do not give them any Chinese skullcap although I did buy it and start a separate and younger flock on it for a bit to provide a little supplemental immune boost for this virus, but they never mixed with the older 3 hens (one of whom was the recovered Marek's hen) until they were already 25 weeks or so.
Since this spring, they have all been in the big fenced yard (periodically) where the infected lived all last summer.
None of the younger hens has contracted Marek's and the recovered hen is fine without any treatments. Knowing how herpes viruses work, and the fact that it may or may not be in the soil in that yard (which is heavy with grass and weeds), it's a risk either way.
It could re-emerge in the one hen. One of the younger hens could come into contact with it in the yard, but simply hasn't yet.
It just seems to me that the issue is more complex and has more variables than the black and white picture painted normally.
That doesn't mean I would take big risks with my flock. But I think a lot depends on the chicken keeping set-up, how that virus is emerging and whether it will go dormant and stay dormant or re-emerge, whether or not one can raise subsequent flocks on a different piece of property until the Marek's in the soils deactivates and if not whether the chickens will even come into contact with it, and so much more.

 

[microchick]

This is a very good point. We had a handful of our hens contract Marek's last summer, a few died, others never showed any signs so I'm figuring they didn't contract it or was able to fight it off without my noticing mild symptoms, and one who had a super mild case and recovered is still around and doing fine. I do not give them any Chinese skullcap although I did buy it and start a separate and younger flock on it for a bit to provide a little supplemental immune boost for this virus, but they never mixed with the older 3 hens (one of whom was the recovered Marek's hen) until they were already 25 weeks or so.
Since this spring, they have all been in the big fenced yard (periodically) where the infected lived all last summer.
None of the younger hens has contracted Marek's and the recovered hen is fine without any treatments. Knowing how herpes viruses work, and the fact that it may or may not be in the soil in that yard (which is heavy with grass and weeds), it's a risk either way.
It could re-emerge in the one hen. One of the younger hens could come into contact with it in the yard, but simply hasn't yet.
It just seems to me that the issue is more complex and has more variables than the black and white picture painted normally.
That doesn't mean I would take big risks with my flock. But I think a lot depends on the chicken keeping set-up, how that virus is emerging and whether it will go dormant and stay dormant or re-emerge, whether or not one can raise subsequent flocks on a different piece of property until the Marek's in the soils deactivates and if not whether the chickens will even come into contact with it, and so much more.

The picture is so much larger than being 'in the dirt'. Marek's is everywhere. The infected dander from chickens is carried by the wind and has a 5 mile radius around your property and not only can it be carried by the wind but it can also be carried by wild birds.

One of the favorite questions I've been asked about the disease is how to remove it from your property. The simple answer is that you can't. It's everywhere. You could scrape up all the dirt on your property, wash everything with anti viral disinfectant and I do mean everything and then oh look! An infected sparrow just flew over my coop...start over, wash, rinse, repeat.

The one word that pops into my head is resistance, or the resistance factor. Don't discount it. It's vital to your flock's survival and it takes time and effort to cultivate.

 

[RubyLady]

The picture is so much larger than being 'in the dirt'. Marek's is everywhere. The infected dander from chickens is carried by the wind and has a 5 mile radius around your property and not only can it be carried by the wind but it can also be carried by wild birds.

One of the favorite questions I've been asked about the disease is how to remove it from your property. The simple answer is that you can't. It's everywhere. You could scrape up all the dirt on your property, wash everything with anti viral disinfectant and I do mean everything and then oh look! An infected sparrow just flew over my coop...start over, wash, rinse, repeat.

The one word that pops into my head is resistance, or the resistance factor. Don't discount it. It's vital to your flock's survival and it takes time and effort to cultivate.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

The picture is so much larger than being 'in the dirt'. Marek's is everywhere. The infected dander from chickens is carried by the wind and has a 5 mile radius around your property and not only can it be carried by the wind but it can also be carried by wild birds.

One of the favorite questions I've been asked about the disease is how to remove it from your property. The simple answer is that you can't. It's everywhere. You could scrape up all the dirt on your property, wash everything with anti viral disinfectant and I do mean everything and then oh look! An infected sparrow just flew over my coop...start over, wash, rinse, repeat.

The one word that pops into my head is resistance, or the resistance factor. Don't discount it. It's vital to your flock's survival and it takes time and effort to cultivate.

While I've updated the page occasionally, much more in depth trials are being conducted by over 300 flock owners collaborative efforts.

So...here's the findings. The Baicalin in Chinese Skullcap puts the virus in a latent state. We recommend a prophylactic dose added to feed for non-symptomatic birds in a positive flock. This is because as the thread title indicates... it's a treatment... not a cure... a treatment. But due to 300 people with different skill sets collaborating... we may be on to a cure, but it's dangerous and there's not testing that can affirm the virus is dead.

 

[microchick]

I remember reading sometime back I think here on BYC that some people have tried Acylcovir which is a popular human treatment for shingles and other forms of herpes in their chickens. The thing with it was that you have to titer out a dose per bird per weight and treat every bird every day with it. Sigh. Ad infinitum. I love my birds but......

I hope you keep updating about this. I would be interested to see how birds are doing 5 at 5 years of age.

Earlier this year I had a young cockerel, not quite a year old who suddenly presented with weight loss, no appetite. When he hadn't eaten for two days I put him down. After almost 7 years without a MD death he made me sigh and wonder if it was raising it's ugly head again in my flock. Luckily he was the only one to present with those symptoms but still. It's always around.

Thanks for posting this.