vometing pullet, please help she is fading

[threehorses]

OK I'm confused - are you speculating about the moldy etc, or did you see this?

Gabriella (beautiful name) probably feels like hammered poop right now. If she takes water, make a thick broth of the feed and water so that the nutrients infuse the water that you give her. If she eats the boiled yolk, dampen crumbles then mix those in. Be sneaky - chickens certainly are!

And yes - she might like oatmeal (with the yogurt and eggs). It's soothing and might ease up her diarrhea a bit, let's hope. And then there's the fuel aspect of it.

YAY for vocal, yay for walking (that right there is a sign to me that this is likely not botulism as she never gave that up). And good about the smell being more normal and less - yuck. Interesting - remember that this was sulfury. That sort of accurate description is SO important for flock histories. You should journal this (and the solutions) and keep that on hand in case this ever happens again.

And yes - often in things like this, an antibiotic can do more harm than good (particularly if it's not the right one). So good - good news on the cleanliness, her activity, etc!

OK You wrote (I'll type answers as A again)

question:
1. How will I know when to put her back out with the others?
A. After she's been in a week - if she's fully recovered and her weight (by feel) feels better than now. The last 2 days of this week, if she really is remarkably recovered, could be used to readjust her diet slowly to get her used to outside feeds again. But patience is a virtue.

You certainly don't want to have to go through this again so take it slow.

2. When could I let her roam in the outside pen where she would be able to get grass and other stuff? I think that is much harder on digestion.
A. Yes. You'll adjust her diet before then.

3. Should I now offer grit and shell.
A. it seems you want me to say yes. But the answer is still no. /wink No, please. Pretty please. Think of this as having your stomach pumped. That's how you feed her today. Like a stomach flu. Gently. Leave that to the end of the week.


Keep having faith. But know for all her improvement that she's still a very vulnerable little girl. We need to get her system up to stuff and you're doing a wonderful job at it. Let's concentrate on making your hard work stick!

 

[embrown]

Nathalie:

Thanks for all your help.

Sorry that was a lapse from when I wrote and you answered, I got it, no grit/shell.

Yes, maybe you missed this post, but I found bluish clump of mold in the food bucket. Maybe it got wet, although I do not know how. Maybe my neighbor topped off the food and we could not see the clump until they had eaten some and exposed it again. Maybe, it got that way from the bag of food. The bag is only about 21 days old, is kept in the garage where there is not moisture, in a container which is dry and the bag is folded down after each scooping. I see nothing in the bag, the food smells normal. It is about half gone. We dumped the feeder, washed it with dish soap, antibacterial, rinsed many times and then did a light bleach wash and rinse.

So, the question is do we get a new bag of food just encase there are spores that get worse when open air/moisture from the air hits it. Or, is it really just that the neighbor was not as careful with the food feeder management and let it get damp or something. I may never know. I think we may just buy new food, DH is stressed about our finances but he also is stressed by a sick chicken in our house.

Ijust hope no one else gets sick. The bluish moldy clump seems like a more explainable cause for Gabriella's illness, but as you and others have said, sometimes we just do not know.

Well, we called the feed store to leave us new food, got to run an erand, the gal is in her new box and is quieter with more space. I will feed her more yolk, and mashed new food when we get back.

You are terrific, thank you for your constant support through this. I am the only person I know locally/personally, that has chickens so I am kind of alone in this. But, it is one of my life's greatest joys, except when one of my chicks is sick.

Thank you, I will keep you posted.

Beth

 

[threehorses]

Goodness, mold in the feed! No, I didn't see that, but that is the source right there. Mycotoxins.

The clinical signs are incoordination or paralysis (check), diarrhea (check), and then lack of feed efficiency, decreased laying, etc.

Some unseen signs are a possible depletion in oil vitamins and some minerals, particularly selenium (which is why you see paralysis as selenium depletion causes neurological signs).

This makes so much sense in retrospect now, doesn't it?

There are few if any "treatments" for mycotoxicosis. Texts tend not to list that sort of thing as they can't guarantee them - they're not scientifically supported. However we know (and this comes from well-heeled poultry sites) that there are some things that can be done to support a chicken (or flock) who has exposure to mycotoxins. So we use those.

First, you've flushed anything in the digestive tract out. Anything that remains are the effects of the toxins and anything that went systemic in this period of time. And the side-effects of the toxins (notably the vitamin deficiencies).

The flock itself must receive supportive treatment but won't require the flush. Supportive treatment should include:


Some form of vitamin package in the water, food, or via beak.
Some form of poultry-safe selenium supplementationn.
Support for the digestive tract to further resist and prevent fungal issues.
Correction of the conditions that caused the illness in the first place.

First, the vitamins/minerals. You could use a poultry-specific vitamin package in the water of your entire flock for some period within the week. As they're non-symptomatic, you needn't do this daily. However I feel your flock would be best served in doing it daily in a week. If budget constraints prevent this, I'd focus that onto the ill bird.
For the ill bird I'd at least use a vitamin/mineral supplement with an additional E-selenium capsule (human food grade on the latter, poultry specific on the former.) I would do this starting tomorrow.
There are many ways to provide the vitamin's needed. But for the selenium I would give a combination vitamin E/selenium oil capsule (for humans) that has something like 400-700 IU of vitamin e, and LESS THAN 50 micrograms*** of selenium. You can snip the end of the capsule and give it to her right in the mouth - or hide it in the egg for three days. Then reevaluate.
Vitamins, you could use the poultry vitamin/mineral supplement as labeled for her water. Alternately you could use PolyViSol's baby vitamins (the one that is not iron fortified - I found mine at Walmart in the vitamin section). 3 drops in the beak or in that egg mixture.

Do this daily for no less than a week.
Give the yogurt daily. If you can get acidophilis capsules or something with bifidum, that's a better choice. (Including the yogurt with bifidum.) But she likes yogurt - so yogurt is fine!

All your birds should get some. For this, consider buying the big tub as it's cheaper. Then can get it a few times a week - they don't need daily unless they become symptomatic.

If you want to give them a digestive cleansing, you could do so simply and gently with a treat this week of applesauce. Plain ol' applesauce, the cheapest brand you can find. It doesn't take much. I prefer unsweetened, but this is a one-time thing. If you feed that to them, the pectin will help the bacteria in the gut as well as gently cleansing the gut. As they don't appear to need a flush, this can help without hurting. It's cheap, easy to find, and effective. Only do once. Only feed a couple of tablespoons per bird. Mix it in something like mashed eggs - something they'll gobble down. Use the yogurt in the same.

Also I'd highly recommend using organic apple cider vinegar. The unfiltered acv helps the pH of the gut to prevent any opportunistic fungi from taking hold, and will help to recolonize the gut with good bacteria. The PREbiotics in it (the little unfiltered stuff) help to feed the bacteria in the bottle and in the gut. This isn't necessary, but would be very helpful in reestablishing the gut flora. The acidity at 1 tablespoon per gallon will also readjust the gut pH to be in the range friendly for GOOD bacteria, and unfriendly for pathogenic organisms. There's also anecdotal and homeopathic talk that it will help flush liver toxins, which is iI think could apply here as there is liver involvement with the mycotoxins. (That's why there is depletion of oil vitamins - because of oil vitamin storage in the liver's fat.)

Of course, keep this hen on gentle foods for the remainder of most of the week. Let's look at her again on Sunday to see if she can take the next nutritional step.

Environmental:
When you clean all your feeders, try rinsing or wiping them finally with white vinegar and hot water. That helps to clean spores (vinegar) and the hot water will help it to evaporate. Don't rinse that off - dry with a papertowel and let it dry thoroughly before putting more feed in. I'd even pour some vinegar/water solution in and wipe the interiors of your feed bin just in case there are any spores there. Again - dry thoroughly, do not rinse. (Using a hair dryer speeds up the process and gets in the cracks - dry overnight so you know).

Yes, replace the feed. Don't feed any more of it.
Next feed, check the bag carefully for the date of manufacture. Buy the smallest bag that you can - aim for using in 2 weeks. For one reason, it's going to fit the budget as you buy other things. Also, you know the food will be gone in 2 weeks. Then after that do as you did and aim to use it within 30 days. When you open the bag, make good and sure that it smells strongly of fresh ingredients. If it smells like cardboard, it might be stale and/or nutritionally degraded. The bag shouldn't look like water ever touched it. Check that the paper, like paper from any package, isn't at all watermarked. No holes, no taped bags, no appreciable dust.

Of course do as you do and feed new feed daily. Because you had this issue once, be sure to check the feed carefully for reoccurence of that mildew. (Not that I have to tell you this - I bet you're going to be a bit paranoid after this - I know I am!).

So a summary:

All birds (do any of this you can:
vitamin/mineral package in the water
OACV alternate days in the water.
Probiotics daily as often as you can for a week or two
Watch carefully; treat all symptomatic birds as you have this one.

Sick bird:
Continue with easily dissolved foods; offer free choice feed (the new stuff only) all the time.
Yogurt, daily x 7 days
Eggs - as a carrier for 'healthy stuff' daily x 7 days
OACV if you can and you're not using a water-based vitamin/mineral package
E-selenium vitamins daily x 3 days - only the dosage recommended
Either water soluable vitamins/minerals for poultry in the water daily - or - Enfamil's polyvisol 3 drops in beak or egg daily x 7 days. Reevaluate on Sunday.

I'm amazed that this little girl is smart enough (or feels crappy enough) to not continue to eat the feed that made her sick! Thank you for taking the time to find the cause. Now we can work on trying to fix her. It's no guarantee - toxins get in there and they are hard to get out. But it's a start, and she's certainly got a good head start here thanks to your care.

I'll be watching for any updates, etc. I'm so glad we're on to something, and very honored to be able to just try and help. Thank you for trusting my advice. I'll do my very best never to let you down or recommend something I wouldn't use for my very own flock.


*** Micrograms are listed as μg or sometimes ug. Milligrams are listed as mg.

 

[embrown]

Can you tell me if this is good enough, it is what DH bought, it has electrolytes and vitamins in it, but not sure it is enough vitamin and wondering whether to do the baby kind also, or if this is enough, It is kind of a general product but we live in a small town and this is what was quickly and easily gotten. This is what I have been giving her all along, but just need to know whether adding another vitamin supplement will overdose her from too much. DH said he would gladly make a trip in to Walmart to get the vit E combo, and the baby vits, as we are getting the other things. Just do not want to make her sicker with too much of something but want to insure we are boosting her up as much as possible.

"Vitamins and electrolytes:" for Poultry, Swine, ruminants, and horses. Ingredients: Vitamin A, Vit D#3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, riboflavin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, niacin supplement, vitamin B-12 suPplement, menadione sodium bisulfite..., folic acid, thiamine hydrochloride, pyridoxin hyddrochloride, ascorbic acid, sodium chloride, calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate, potassium chloride and dextrose.

Last night, around midnight I got discouraged as her head was just hanging and I could hardly give her anything even by dropper. So, I ground up some of the new food very fine, like a dust and put it in her new/larger box. I gave fresh electrolyte water and went to bed.

I was woke by her making noise, this morning, DH went to look at her and she was pecking at the bowl of ground food and he actually saw her take a few pecks of the water solution. She has been active more today. She is well enough that she will not let me hhold her bowl while she eats, she wants me to leave it on the ground for her to do on her own. She has eaten the yolk, a tsp of yogurt, and pecked a bit more at the free choice ground food and water. I moved her box with wire top onto the porch where she could get some fresh air and sun, the temp is around 78 today and she seems happy out there, I will bring her in before the sun goes down and keep her in the box in the house. She gets to clucking more hardily today. She has tried 3 times to fly up and bumped her head on the top, silly girl. This morning, she actually flew the 36 inches up to the edge of the box and down when I walked away, so I put the top on. There were 4 poohs by this morning and about the same today. Still runny but hoping with this more eating it will improve. It seems that when she gets active she is good but she tires easily and then looks a little more concernedly. It is up and down, but overall much better. None of the flock is showing illness. Vinegar went in there water today, I gave them yogurt and once we go to Walmart I will give them the apple sauce tonight or tomorrow morning and will put assodophylis in that for them all. Do you think the above solution would be good in their water one day and the oacv on the alternate or is that unnecessary.

Thanks again for all your help, it is paying off as far as I can tell.

Beth

 

[embrown]

It is now Friday, 3 days later. My little Gabriella is doing well. The breast bone is less prominent, she is perky, she is very talkative, and she is finally eating everything on her own. She is not happy for being in the box and calls for her mates if she hears them.

What I am doing now:
1. feeding her finely ground new food, layer formula.
2. Vitamin/electrolytes in her water that she id definitely drinking and I am no longer having to feed by dropper.
3. 2 yolks of boiled eggs for protein, one I add asodophylisis to, wonder if I need to add extra baby vitamines, I still can not find the E salinium combo, will be able to shop Sat.
4. Yogurt once per day, just a bit more than a tsp. also giving yogurt to the flock
5. OACV in the flocks water today, electrolyte solution tomorrow.
6. lots of love.

current status:
1. the rest of the flock seems fine, got my first double yolk and ate the first scrambled egg dinner, Yummy.
2. Gabriella is walking and running around the house when I let her. She flys out of the box if we do not put the top on. She is talkative and is dustbathing. Pooh is getting a bit more formed. It is still soft and kind of bloppy but it is not completely runny. She is eating and drinking on her own. I think she has added weight. She is now pecking at my shirt designs, flying to my shoulder and kind of being spunky.

Thanks again for all the advice.

My neighbor came home today for their trip. She told me that it had rained a bit on the food and girls and she dumped of the dampest food on the top, said it was mostly dry. Did not dump all the food, did not dry the feeder, so this is definitely what caused the mold. We bought a new bag of food, but DH would also like to use the old stuff, anyone have thoughts on that? The bag was dry in the garage. A friend thinks that if the food molded maybe it was already weak and so not to feed but DH is frugal and does not want to waste anything. Gabriella may not eat it anyway as she turned her beak up at it in the beginning of this ordeal. She likes the new food, it is a different brand of layer feed.

It is like a miracle, I would have never thought things could be this good.

Planning to keep her in until Sunday or Monday morning as recommended, but she does not like it. I am hoping that by then I can see perfect pooh, and I like that I can clearly monitor what she is consuming. I wish there was a way to always do that, it might help to catch problems sooner...before the bird is really sick. It seems that these chickens hide illness and fall hard when illness comes

 

[Scarletpyxi]

What would the dosage for tylamox be?