Vomit Smelling Fermented Feed!

[ChookieG]

I just don’t get it, most if not all quality feeds come with probiotics so why in the world mess around with fermented feed.
SMH

Nope.. not here.. there's only one brand that does it here....

Anyhow guys, thanks so much for your all inputs and advice. I went ahead and did what I said I was gonna.. fermented a 1/2 quart bottle half filled with scratch grains and kept the lid loosely on so the CO2 bubbles can escape without causing an explosion at 95 deg f and also keep it less anaerobic as advised by @rosemarythyme. I did add a tspn ACV (with mother) after 12 h as there was no activity. Then the magic happened...lots of bubbles and 24 h later it's still bubbling away with no vomit smell!

@Dephora I think you may be right about the temp though so far my culture seems ok. I've been thinking the vomit smell may be due to the fact that some other type of bacteria that's more active in the anaerobic condition may have taken over and have caused an imbalance resulting in the nasty smell. I heard that a fermented Japanese dish called natto has a similar pungent smell. Also heard that fermented raw beans can also smell really bad. The bacterium responsible for producing natto is Bacillus subtilis and as it is a facultative anaerobe it will start fermenting stuff in the absence of oxygen. Perhaps it was this bug that was responsible for the smell as my scratch mix contains the legume (bean) lupin. Would have been nice if an comparative analysis could be done on the type of bacteria found in the vomit-smelling vs. yeasty-smelling cultures.

Sorry for the geek talk. Will keep you guys updated.

 

[Dephora]

Nope.. not here.. there's only one brand that does it here....

Anyhow guys, thanks so much for your all inputs and advice. I went ahead and did what I said I was gonna.. fermented a 1/2 quart bottle half filled with scratch grains and kept the lid loosely on so the CO2 bubbles can escape without causing an explosion at 95 deg f and also keep it less anaerobic as advised by @rosemarythyme. I did add a tspn ACV (with mother) after 12 h as there was no activity. Then the magic happened...lots of bubbles and 24 h later it's still bubbling away with no vomit smell!

@Dephora I think you may be right about the temp though so far my culture seems ok. I've been thinking the vomit smell may be due to the fact that some other type of bacteria that's more active in the anaerobic condition may have taken over and have caused an imbalance resulting in the nasty smell. I heard that a fermented Japanese dish called natto has a similar pungent smell. Also heard that fermented raw beans can also smell really bad. The bacterium responsible for producing natto is Bacillus subtilis and as it is a facultative anaerobe it will start fermenting stuff in the absence of oxygen. Perhaps it was this bug that was responsible for the smell as my scratch mix contains the legume (bean) lupin. Would have been nice if an comparative analysis could be done on the type of bacteria found in the vomit-smelling vs. yeasty-smelling cultures.

Sorry for the geek talk. Will keep you guys updated.

Glad it is working out for you so far. I have found that the natural wild bacteria and yeast found on certain grains can produce a pretty diverse range of smells, legumes at high temps of fermentation can be pretty eye watering. If you are ever concerned about a smell a quick PH test will help let you know that you are producing safe bacteria as botulism bacteria hates acid PH levels.

https://www.amazon.com/0-00-14-00ph...hild=1&keywords=ph+test&qid=1620956901&sr=8-4

 

[Dephora]

Also I took the time to look at some studies where they fermented lupin.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28562076/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31847102/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32000081/

It seems that a PH of 2.4 was a main factor in a better "aroma" when fermenting lupin with any lacto bacteria. But until it gets to 2.4 it may smell pretty rough.

 

[ChookieG]

Also I took the time to look at some studies where they fermented lupin.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28562076/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31847102/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32000081/

It seems that a PH of 2.4 was a main factor in a better "aroma" when fermenting lupin with any lacto bacteria. But until it gets to 2.4 it may smell pretty rough.

Hey there sorry for the late reply as I haven't been able to get online since 12 May.

Thanks for the info and articles. I haven't had the opportunity to go through them yet but just wanna tell you that after 48 hr at 95 deg the ferment went smelly again. I did another fermentation using crumbles (that has no lupins) and that was even smellier if that was even possible: it smelled like somebody ate their puke and then vomited it out again! That I couldn't toss to the chooks so into the ground as worm food it went!

So I did another ferment this time at room temperature between 20 - 25 deg c (68 - 77 deg f) and added 1 tbspn white vinegar to 1 quart scratch grains in a 2 quart bottle, added filtered water till about 80% full with the lid loosely on. I didn't add any ACV mother as I read that it can cause alcohol formation which can cause violence in chickens!

After 24 h, the smell was gracious! There was a lot of bubbling but no alcohol smell - just a fruity grainy sourness. The bubbling eventually stopped after about 5 days. I haven't got a pH meter with me but I'm guessing that at this temperature, the acidophilic bacteria were the predominant flora so things were under control.

I've created a pipeline of FF now with five 2-quart of bottles fermenting at any given time.. all smelling decent now!

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

It is Butyric Acid one of the Volatile Fatty Acids that can be produced with Fermantation. If you have Butyrate then you have a bad fermentation.

 

[ChookieG]

It is Butyric Acid one of the Volatile Fatty Acids that can be produced with Fermantation. If you have Butyrate then you have a bad fermentation.

Good to know! Now I know why I hate Parmesan cheese....

Thanks!

 

[FoxySonia]

This morning I wanted to try to ferment some of my chicks' food, so I took about 2 cups of Grubbly Little Pecks Chick Starter Crumbles and added dechlorinated tap water and covered it up to maybe an inch. But when I checked it that afternoon it had absorbed all the water so I added a little more, up to about 1/2 inch over the mash. Tonight when I went to stir it I found it had expanded and was bubbling a lot, which surprised me since that hadn't happened so fast before when I fermented my adult chicken's Scrarch and Peck Organic Layer Feed mixed with Grubbly's Layer Feed, which usually takes 2 to 3 days to start bubbling and ferment. Today was 90 degrees farenheit, in Queens, New York, so maybe that's why the crumble mash fermented so quickly. But I'm not sure if it's good or if it's a bad ferment, as it doesn't smell sweet, tangy or yeasty like sourdough or yogurt, instead it has an unpleasant smell, like cheese. I don't see any gray mold or white yeast growing on top, but I skimmed the top 1/2 inch and threw that away. I'm still hesitant to give it to my 3 week old chicks, but don't want to waste the expensive food of it's good. After smelling it several time, I gave a little of the fermented feed mixed with a little of the dry crumbles to make it less wet and mushy (there was no liquid to drain since it was absorbed by the crumbles) to the chicks and they ate it. Hoping they don't get sick from it. Could the cheese smell be because the feed contain ground grubs (black soldier fly larvae)? Could the insect protein cause the off putting smell? Or was it the hot and humid temperature, or the combination of that and the grub protein in the chick crumbles?

 

[ChookieG]

This morning I wanted to try to ferment some of my chicks' food, so I took about 2 cups of Grubbly Little Pecks Chick Starter Crumbles and added dechlorinated tap water and covered it up to maybe an inch. But when I checked it that afternoon it had absorbed all the water so I added a little more, up to about 1/2 inch over the mash. Tonight when I went to stir it I found it had expanded and was bubbling a lot, which surprised me since that hadn't happened so fast before when I fermented my adult chicken's Scrarch and Peck Organic Layer Feed mixed with Grubbly's Layer Feed, which usually takes 2 to 3 days to start bubbling and ferment. Today was 90 degrees farenheit, in Queens, New York, so maybe that's why the crumble mash fermented so quickly. But I'm not sure if it's good or if it's a bad ferment, as it doesn't smell sweet, tangy or yeasty like sourdough or yogurt, instead it has an unpleasant smell, like cheese. I don't see any gray mold or white yeast growing on top, but I skimmed the top 1/2 inch and threw that away. I'm still hesitant to give it to my 3 week old chicks, but don't want to waste the expensive food of it's good. After smelling it several time, I gave a little of the fermented feed mixed with a little of the dry crumbles to make it less wet and mushy (there was no liquid to drain since it was absorbed by the crumbles) to the chicks and they ate it. Hoping they don't get sick from it. Could the cheese smell be because the feed contain ground grubs (black soldier fly larvae)? Could the insect protein cause the off putting smell? Or was it the hot and humid temperature, or the combination of that and the grub protein in the chick crumbles?

Hey FoxySonia, good question! Just based on my experience and what I've read, I think it might be a bit of both. I've fermented feed at 90 deg f and haven't had any issue but mine didn't contain bugs. I realized that the vomit smell I was getting this time round when I posted this thread was bcos the temperature was actually 104 deg f!

If you had some time to read through this thread, @Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay mentioned the cheesy /vomit smell is due to the formation of butyric acid, which is a product generated by some anaerobic (no oxygen) bacteria commonly found in mammalian guts. The bacteria responsible break down sugars and fibers found in vegetable matter.

I've fed my vomit-fermented feed to my chooks with no obvious ill effect. That said I think it's still best to err on the side of caution and prepare a new batch.. it's better to waste a few bucks then end up killing a few chicks..

I suggest you take just a little to experiment with first... perhaps maybe a quarter cup. Add 1 tspn white vinegar to the crumbles and fill it 3/4 of the way with filtered water in a half-quart bottle and close the lid tight. This will ensure your ferment is at an acidic and low oxygen environment which will allow for the nicer bugs to flourish. The little air space also allows for expansion of the crumbles. I don't suggest you use ACV mother as I've read the stuff produces alcohol which is not good for chooks although you can stir it enough un-lidded it will introduce aerobic (oxygenated) conditions for acetobacteria to break down the alcohol in your feed. Otherwise you may need to burb it a few times a day to release the excess CO2 produced to avoid an explosion. However if you use a glass jar that was used to store food like tomato paste the lid is designed to release excess pressure.. don't quote me on that though! You can tell if it's under pressure if you can't depress the little safety button on the lid.

If you have an air-lock even better but not necessary. Let it ferment till it stops bubbling which at your temperature should take about 3-5 days but you can check it after 48h. If it's gone bad again you should smell it by then.

Hope that helps! Lemme know how it goes!