Was I bamboozled by a TS employee?

[junebuggena]

A few things about these studies. The results are usually given that they “can” cause problems. They don’t say each and every bird in the study 100% absolutely will have problems, they say it “can” cause problems. Most of them give percentages of how many die or have problems. It is not 100%.

In these studies they typically cut the chicks apart so experts can look at their internal organs and see what is going on. Internal damage may not be readily evident from outside the bird. The liver or kidneys may be damaged to a point that the bird is just a little less thrifty, not that they fall over dead. If you are running thousands of laying hens like the commercial operations just a bit less thrifty has serious consequences. Perhaps the damage is such that a year of more later the bird can’t handle stress very well and they do become ill or die. Sometimes the damage is subtle, not readily apparent and not immediately apparent.

Almost all these studies are performed on the hybrid meat birds or hybrid commercial layers. These are what the commercial poultry business is concerned with and they are the ones that pay for the studies. Who will pay for studies for our dual purpose birds or bantams? Who is interested in them that has the money?

In these studies one group of chicks is fed nothing but Layer with the control group’s diet also very controlled. It’s not what is in one bite, it’s how many grams of total calcium they eat all day. And it’s not limited to one day either. It’s what they average over several days.

If yours forage for a lot of their feed you aren’t micromanaging their feed or nutrient intake anyway. Quality of forage has a lot to do with it. We all have different quality of forage if we have forage at all. We feed differently. Chicks with my broody hens tend to eat very little feed, the hens take them out to forage most of the day. We are all so unique in how we manage them, quality of forage or treats, broody or brooder, and many other things that one person’s results don’t mean booger snot to someone that raises them totally differently.

Somebody, I thought it was Bobbi but could have been Canoe, I’m not sure, had a study on feeding roosters. I can’t recall if that was excess calcium or excess protein. My memory isn’t what I wish it once was. Anyway the results were that it could lessen fertility. “Could”. Commercial operations would pay for a study like that because they keep a lot of flocks of hens and roosters that produce all the eggs the meat birds or laying hens hatch from. Since roosters are taller than the hens and have bigger heads the roosters eat from feeders up too high for the hens to use. The hens eat from feeders down low but with wire separators so close together that the roosters’ heads don’t fit. Since these hens are fed a feed around 16% protein I think that study might have been about calcium but I could easily be wrong. There are probably other nutrients in those breeding flocks they are worried about for hens versus roosters.

I never feed Layer. I practically always have growing chicks in the flock. While mine forage enough that I probably don’t have to worry about it for my broody raised chicks or my roosters, I just consider it good practice to not feed Layer. Instead I offer oyster shell on the side for the laying hens and feed a Grower with low calcium levels for them all to eat. Since I don’t know how everyone that reads my posts actually raise their chicks or feed them, I’m not going to advise it’s not important. If (“if” is a big word) people are raising them where they are feeding them practically nothing but commercial feed there is way too much scientific evidence out there that it can and often does cause a problem.

There are additional studies that these ones use as reference, but are not available without a subscription to specific medical journals. Most of the detailed studies regarding nutrition are not available online. The conclusions of the studies that are available, are enough to to pose a reasonable assumption that too much calcium fed to any bird, regardless of species, gender, or age, is not good for the overall health of the bird.
There is not a single one that can actually prove there is benefit from such practices. In fact, several prove that even the 4% calcium content in layers feed may be excessive.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

So does anyone know how I can determine the quality of my forage?

 

[Beekissed]

How about this study involving pullets intended for egg production.
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/87/7/1353.full
Or how about this one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21781931?dopt=Abstract
http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=birdBrain.articlesRead&article_id=10
Or this one.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbca/v13n1/v13n1a05.pdf
This one showed that the more calcium a layer is fed, the lower the production rate. It was not a long term study though, and they did not look at the effects on the organs.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/232/gout/
This is regards caged layer hens, fed a commercial layer feed.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/p...poultry/urate_deposition_gout_in_poultry.html
This one lists ingestion of feed with a higher calcium than 3% as a cause for gout in non-layers.
http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/medwelljournals/javaa/2012/3705-3708.pdf
This one mentions broiler breeder males specifically. Mind you, these are DP males used to create the broiler crossbreeds.

But no matter what the study, and no matter what the birds, the effects of too much calcium in the diet is consistent. Too much dietary calcium is bad. Effects can range from an increase intake of water or lower egg production, to kidney failure and death. Why risk it? It's simple enough to avoid.

Why risk it?? To test the validity of these claims, of course. If a lie keeps getting repeated as truth over and over, pretty soon a person never tests it to see if it holds any truth and the government/whatever entity can pull the wool over our eyes any ol' time it wants....and it does...because no one ever "risks" it. I risk it because I like to discover for myself the truth of things...and I do...and don't mind repeating the results I find. I then OWN that experience and it's not one just gleaned from a book or website that someone else posted as truth but no one dares to try and test.

Only one of those studies mentioned male birds and all the studies stating feeding calcium causes gout said it COULD be one of the reasons but always prefaced that with other things that could cause it or mitigating circumstances like dehydration along with, etc.

A person can freak out over every little study someone posts about the hazards of feeding this or that or they can just use common sense and their own experiences with feeding chickens. I'm not locked into any one type of feeding so have no bone to gnaw on about that, but I've seen no evidence of poor health, fertility or growth caused by supplementing/feeding a flock with layer ration, so I'm~of course~not convinced of the validity of some government study done on commercial breeds. It just has no bearing on my flock at all, so I give it little credence.

It's the same with lists of things "toxic" to chickens that folks always post but when one free ranges, the birds are out there consuming what they wish and sometimes it's these very things "they" call toxic...which leads me to believe that those folks don't know what they are talking about either.

All of it boils down to needless drama and fear over things I've yet to see happen, no matter how many breeds or birds I've kept over the past 40 yrs, so I'll not advocate the fear mongering of it all.

 

[Beekissed]

So does anyone know how I can determine the quality of my forage?

Already posted you a link in a post a page back.... http://www.feedipedia.org/

 

[junebuggena]

You would first have to identify each variety of plant, and the percentage of their distribution. I imagine it would be similar to the way forests are surveyed. Then, with some serious math skills, you'll be able to determine the average nutritional content.

 

[junebuggena]

Why risk it?? To test the validity of these claims, of course. If a lie keeps getting repeated as truth over and over, pretty soon a person never tests it to see if it holds any truth and the government/whatever entity can pull the wool over our eyes any ol' time it wants....and it does...because no one ever "risks" it. I risk it because I like to discover for myself the truth of things...and I do...and don't mind repeating the results I find. I then OWN that experience and it's not one just gleaned from a book or website that someone else posted as truth but no one dares to try and test.

Only one of those studies mentioned male birds and all the studies stating feeding calcium causes gout said it COULD be one of the reasons but always prefaced that with other things that could cause it or mitigating circumstances like dehydration along with, etc.

A person can freak out over every little study someone posts about the hazards of feeding this or that or they can just use common sense and their own experiences with feeding chickens. I'm not locked into any one type of feeding so have no bone to gnaw on about that, but I've seen no evidence of poor health, fertility or growth caused by supplementing/feeding a flock with layer ration, so I'm~of course~not convinced of the validity of some government study done on commercial breeds. It just has no bearing on my flock at all, so I give it little credence.

It's the same with lists of things "toxic" to chickens that folks always post but when one free ranges, the birds are out there consuming what they wish and sometimes it's these very things "they" call toxic...which leads me to believe that those folks don't know what they are talking about either.

All of it boils down to needless drama and fear over things I've yet to see happen, no matter how many breeds or birds I've kept over the past 40 yrs, so I'll not advocate the fear mongering of it all.

Something that has been proven repeatedly via scientific method is not fear mongering or spreading lies. It's spreading verified fact and truth. It's not just one or two studies, there have been many studies conducted on the effects of layer feed fed to non-laying, soon-to-be-laying, and actively laying birds. And the results are consistent.
Have you ever tried supplementing with a lower calcium feed to verify that your birds aren't negatively impacted by the layer feed?

 

[Beekissed]

Something that has been proven repeatedly via scientific method is not fear mongering or spreading lies. It's spreading verified fact and truth. It's not just one or two studies, there have been many studies conducted on the effects of layer feed fed to non-laying, soon-to-be-laying, and actively laying birds. And the results are consistent.
Have you ever tried supplementing with a lower calcium feed to verify that your birds aren't negatively impacted by the layer feed?

Like Ridgerunner stated...these studies are being paid for by someone and the studies usually reflect that. Just like the studies that they do over and over and over that state backyard flocks are the cause of disease in the commercial poultry farms...like the avian flu, where if you live within miles of one of these commercial setups that have the disease and you have backyard chickens, someone will come and test your flock...and guess what? Your flock indeed has it or they are carriers and you never even knew it! They showed no signs or symptoms of having it but you will still have to surrender your birds anyway because the people paying to blame your flock have more money and a bigger dog in the fight.

If you are still trusting the scientists paid for by commercial ag, I can't help you with that, but I'll continue to trust my own eyes here.

How would supplementing with lower calcium feed verify that my chickens are negatively affected by their current feed? They are extremely healthy as it is now, their fertility rates are top notch and they lay like their breed/age should be laying. I can't imagine anything better than that....but if you are willing to send me low calcium feed that is fresh ground from a mill that day that is as cheap as I currently can get it, please do so and I'll certainly give it a whirl!

But, we can flip that coin and ask if you've ever used layer ration for any length of time on birds of all ages and found if your low calcium feed is somehow negatively affecting the performance and health of your birds? If not, then I guess you will never know for sure if layer ration is a bad thing or a good thing for your flock.

The only time my chickens are eating solely on layer ration is in the winter months and even then I'm cutting that with whole grains, so they are likely eating a lower calcium feed all winter long. Now, in the other months, I'm not out there limiting the calcium they glean from the green, leafy things they consume, which can be as high as 10% in things as common as white dutch clover, but I'm not willing to keep my chickens off free range to test and see if they can suddenly become even more healthy and productive...why, that would turn them into SUPER chickens!

Naw, I'm pretty satisfied my chickens are as healthy and productive as other flocks out there being fed on lower calcium feeds...which, strangely, folks supplement with calcium on the side that is free fed so any given time a chick or rooster can be overindulging in the OS dish if they so desire and no one is limiting that, thinking that the bird will only consume what they need or are currently deficient in....but I did a test of that years ago, leaving a full bag of OS open in the coop so the birds~all eating layer mash, mind you~could sample it if they wished....and they did. Over and over. And soon that bag was empty...which doesn't make a bit of sense if they are eating that evil high calcium layer ration AND free ranging for additional dietary calcium...why would they then go and eat a whole bag of OS???

 

[FridayYet]

Thanks everyone. Glad I kept my receipt, but so annoying!

No need to take it back, (if you haven't already) just mix your layer feed in with another bag or two of flock raiser. You'll have a mix with a bit higher calcium for a while, then go back to buying all flock like you did before.

Just an option to think about.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Already posted you a link in a post a page back.... http://www.feedipedia.org/

That's right! Sorry my mind was spinning already this morning.

I will book mark so I can use over and over again. Thank you!

Although I am on the side of too much calcium CAN cause problems.... I do get what you are saying about using your own experiences. And the reason to test it being to see who is lying or mistaken even. And I to am a "show me" type person. I don't just take things at face value.... EVER.

In no way do I think your birds are unhealthy or diseased! And I barely have 40 years of experience breathing, much less raising birds! Ah, for once I get to feel young again.

I do think it has some to do with genetics. Just like humans... two of my friends don't eat spinach or drink tea or dark soda's because the ingredients (oxalates) in them cause kidney stones AND dehydration ALWAYS adds to it... for them. For me, I haven't drank a drop of plain water in YEARS! And I drink that forbidden cancer causing diet soda and pink sweetener all day long every day. Those sweetener studies were conducted in amount on rats so large no one could ever consume that much... Would like to donate my body to science for that reason, but they won't just take everybody.

For TOXIC plants... I agree one says this and another says that. Toxic and deadly are not the same thing. Yes, chocolate is toxic to dogs... it takes one ounce per pound of dog to cause death. Well, my 65 pound dog will never (I hope) consume 65 ounces of chocolate at once. That would probably make me WISH I was dead from feeling so terrible. And I can not even begin to tell you how many toxic plants are in my pasture that I fretted over before getting chickens and goats. I still try to get rid of most stuff, but I haven't yet lost an animal.

I also haven't tied my goats up next to an oleander bush yet either. Some "toxic" things like Tansy Ragwort require a build up in the system, and they will. Other things will process out and not build up. There are so many variables, it's true they may not be relative to your husbandry practices.

For me, I will still use Flock Raiser because it makes sense (to me) to have the slightly higher protein level for my growing birds.

Thanks for an interesting discussion! I value that other people have different ideas. (We used your killing cone video over and over during processing this week. I am so proud of my 17 year old daughter who did the whole process!

Tears of joy)

Can you imagine spinach being bad for you? Only if you are predisposed for certain issues, I guess.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So does anyone know how I can determine the quality of my forage?

I don’t know how to put a number on quality of forage. You could look at what plants are available, but mine don’t eat all plants, they like some better than others. They tend to like fresh young tender stuff better than most older tough stuff. Some plants and grasses they won’t touch at all. Some they love at any stage.

You have to consider seasons too. They can find a surprising amount of forage even in dead of winter as long as the snow isn’t covering the ground. But obviously the selection is better when things are growing.

It’s not just plants either. They love various creepy crawlies. Grasshoppers, Japanese beetles, frogs, grubs, small snakes, and all kinds of other flying, crawling, wiggling, or hopping things add to forage. Time of year obviously plays a part in that.

They like scratching in leaf mold or other decaying vegetative matter. A compost pile can provide a lot of stuff. Leaves built up in an overgrown fencerow or a woodland are prime areas. They get bugs there but they also eat decaying matter. They can be a pain if they have access to mulched gardens or landscaped beds but they love scratching there.

Animals like horses, cattle, sheep, or goats are a big plus. They love scratching around in the poop looking for partially digested bits but they often find maggots from flies in there too. If you feed these animals chickens will scavenge food from hay or grains you feed them.

I can’t put a number on all this. A manicured back yard provides some forage, they will really enjoy that, but it is limited. To me the best forage is an area with various varieties of grasses and weeds where some grasses and weeds are allowed to go to seed. Decaying plant matter is a big plus. Most of us don’t have the benefit of larger farm animals and all the help the poop gives. It helps if your climate is wet enough to support plant growth most of the year and support a lot of creepy crawlies. Supplementing their forage with scraps from the kitchen or stuff from the garden can help.

To me, the more variety they have the better the forage. And they will eat what they want to eat. You can’t make them eat anything. That’s why I say the more they forage the less control you have over it.