Washingtonians Come Together! Washington Peeps

[BGMatt]

Chickielady vaccinates her chicks.  I don't think that means that her birds have issues.  She knows what she's doing, so if people are going to be so picky about vaccinated birds, that's their loss.

I'd rather not expose my flocks to birds that could be carriers of a disease. Just because a bird has been vaccinated does not mean it can not transmit the disease to others.

If people want to delude themselves about the fallacies of vaccination and think that bio security can ever be air tight and rely on those rather than common sense and genetic sturdiness that is their loss. And their flock's loss.

Yep. Actually, we use it ourselves (internally, being around so many animals, seems like a good idea) and on the dog for flea prevention and lots of other things. The only thing I don't quite understand is why it would help harden shells (saw a few people talk about this recently) and I didn't think silica (primary component in DE) would help 'harden' a Calcium based eggshell... I'm missing some piece of info somewhere.

It can't. It's not you that's missing the info it's others. The only way that could be remotely possible is due to the same grinding and sharp edges that destroy the internal parasites DE could aid in digestion and absorption of nutrients that could in theory result in those changes.

 

[CarolynF]

Quote:
Matt.... you sound SO sure of yourself and I know you mean no harm, but you're being terribly abrasive, to the point of being rude. I like to debate issues, but when you "talk" this way it's really hard. Somehow I just don't believe that you know everything there is to know about DE and how it can or cannot possibly play a part in making egg shells harder. Can you show us the research that proves there is absolutely no possible way.... that there's no possible way that it can work with the animals system to make better use of available components? That the trace elements in the various components in the chickens feed and supplements can't interact to improve the quality of the egg shells. On the other hand can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with scientific research that can be reproduced in a controlled environment, that DE has a actual effect on internal parasites? Or is this just perhaps what you believe from observations during uncontrolled personal experiences... otherwise known as anecdotal evidence? I'm happy to go along with this if you can actually produce research conducted and published in a respected educational or scientific community.

By the way BYC people... this is just one example of how controversial the topic is, and why. Reputable research is very hard to find. There is a lot of information that sounds scientific, but is in fact written by people that are really just trying to convince people to buy their products. When you dig deeper, most claims cannot be substantiated by actual controlled, scientifically and statistically accurate research. In general, we each have to sift through the information and take from it what we believe seems to work in our own situations.

Aleta... the research papers I read didn't explain why the shells were stronger, or why the poop was dryer, or why there were less flies. It simply reported the research project using hundreds of birds, including a control group of the same size, same breed, same source, same age, same housing, same diet, same environment, etc. They simply gave the facts and figures. Their first research project was looking at something slightly different, but the results they recorded inspired them to do another project looking more specifically at these and a few other items specifically.

What I wrote earlier was the results of days and days and days of searching for legitimate research, which is scarce as hens teeth! I'd really love to see more so if anyone can provide links, please do.

 

[AletaG]

I think it has to do with the success in disease near-eradication in humans. For example, polio. And in humans, it's rare to have a disease that a vaccinated person can carry/transmit. It seems to be VERY common with poultry, partly because the vaccinations are often developed from analogs of the disease, NOT the actual disease (apparently with Mareks, that's changing? moving from Turkey developed vaccines to chicken developed? Which would/should mostly solve that particular issue). People are, well, people centric. Our people-centered vaccine model (which has it's own issues, not, I HOPE, to be discussed here... ) doesn't work so well with a completely different, non-mammalian species. I do intend to work on breeding hardiness, but I'd like to START by not killing off my initial investment in breeders. Which is why I'm anxiously awaiting the results of the testing in Puyallup. If it's just (just!) bird bronchitis, will bring 'em in anyway, but if it's some truly awful thing, then I'll be starting 'fresh'. And my neighbors will be wondering if I practice the wrong kind of vudun<sp>.

I'd rather not expose my flocks to birds that could be carriers of a disease. Just because a bird has been vaccinated does not mean it can not transmit the disease to others.
If people want to delude themselves about the fallacies of vaccination and think that bio security can ever be air tight and rely on those rather than common sense and genetic sturdiness that is their loss. And their flock's loss.
It can't. It's not you that's missing the info it's others. The only way that could be remotely possible is due to the same grinding and sharp edges that destroy the internal parasites DE could aid in digestion and absorption of nutrients that could in theory result in those changes.

Ok, will cease wondering about that. Didn't seem logical to me... Thank you! Has anyone told you that you are a loveable curmudgeon? You remind me a lot of my dad... and we cross swords quite often. You-->

<--almost everyone else... Cracks me up.

 

[BGMatt]

Matt....   you sound SO sure of yourself and I know you mean no harm, but you're being terribly abrasive, to the point of being rude.  I like to debate issues, but when you "talk" this way it's really hard.   Somehow I just don't believe that you know everything there is to know about DE and how it can or cannot possibly play a part in making egg shells harder.  Can you show us the research that proves there is absolutely no possible way.... that there's no possible way that it can work with the animals system to make better use of available components?   That the trace elements in the various components in the chickens feed and supplements can't interact to improve the quality of the egg shells.  On the other hand can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with scientific research that can be reproduced in a controlled environment, that DE has a actual effect on internal parasites?   Or is this just perhaps what you believe from observations during uncontrolled personal experiences... otherwise known as anecdotal evidence?     I'm happy to go along with this if you can actually produce research conducted and published in a respected educational or scientific community. 

By the way BYC people... this is just one example of how controversial the topic is, and why.  Reputable research is very hard to find.  There is a lot of information that sounds scientific, but is in fact written by people that are really just trying to convince people to buy their products.  When you dig deeper, most claims cannot be substantiated by actual controlled, scientifically and statistically accurate research.  In general, we each have to sift through the information and take from it what we believe seems to work in our own situations. 

Aleta... the research papers I read didn't explain why the shells were stronger, or why the poop was dryer, or why there were less flies.  It simply reported the research project using hundreds of birds, including a control group of the same size, same breed, same source, same age, same housing, same diet, same environment, etc.  They simply gave the facts and figures.  Their first research project was looking at something slightly different, but the results they recorded inspired them to do another project looking more specifically at these and a few other items specifically. 

What I wrote earlier was the results of days and days and days of searching for legitimate research, which is scarce as hens teeth!  I'd really love to see more so if anyone can provide links, please do.

The reason I can say it is because I've been studying animal nutrition over half my life. Food grade DE as Aleta said is a silicon base, which chickens do not use to form egg shells.

Call it anecdotal evidence if you want but when I have had chickens shipped to me that had worms, are treated with DE and then have clean fecals, and when I have had the same results with my house cat that is verification. I could perhaps dig up the fecal test results from my vet if you'd like, but I'm not sure if I still have them as that was many years ago.

I state my opinions strongly due to a wealth of experience, research, and in some cases due to my profession. There is a lot of misinformation out there, so I state what I KNOW to be true as clearly as possible so there is no confusion.

You are right there's not a ton of research on some of this stuff, that's why I did it personally because I was tired of being told different things by everyone, reading a website or being advised at the feed store or by a breeder.

So I'm just sharing knowledge, what people do with it is their own business. Hopefully they listen and take it to heart. If not? I tried to share what took years for me to learn.

 

[AletaG]

Wow, Dr. Rocio is fast.

So 2 of 3 blood samples came back positive for Mycoplasma gallisepticum, one negative. Had to email back asking which sample is which (I labeled them, but the results just say 1/2/3!). The deceased Rhodebar was severely underweight (I could see that, but you know) and has signs of some kind of respiratory infection. I asked her to go ahead with the microscopy test she suggested and she's culturing some lung tissue. Once I know which samples were which, will let her know whether it makes sense to me to just assume MG in the Rhodebar or go ahead and spring the 40$ for a PCR test.

Also grilled her on % morbidity and how to tell an infected bird is past the point of recovery and should be culled right away. Stuff that I thought my local extension office should know, but there's no one on staff that knows anything about chickens. Also asked if there was a thinner gauge needle that would still be effective in aquiring samples, 'cause 22gauge was horrific.
Updates as they come.

 

[AletaG]

Found several threads on MG on BYC. It looks like my options are A. cull everything, clean, and wait and start over or B. don't even think about breeding and selling anything, or selling eggs.

Going to be a seriously, seriously crappy weekend. I've emailed the 'no-kill shelter' I adopted my likely suspects from. We'll see if they are insane enough to take them back. I think it would be wrong, but I signed a contract agreeing not to kill them. They never showed any symptoms, but odds are they are the source.

 

[richarddhoward]

What is so crazy is the guy next to us shoots his gun several times a week "training" his hunting dogs. Somebody up and over the hill must be super rich because sometimes he'll shoot off an - automatic? - at 40 rounds a clip I swear. I don't know much about guns but we got all kinds of them going off around here. Then there are the cannons on the 4th of July and New Years that rattle your whole house. Then when you want to something legit - they worry about their animals? Like I said,

I like guns, but I don't LOVE guns. Automatics make no sense to me. At least in a civilian life, they aren't practical. Fun to shoot, but I don't need 40 rounds to take out a coyote, or raccoon. I have a semi auto, and if it takes more then two rounds to down something I am doing something wrong. Automatics to me mean the guy has something to prove. As for your neighbor...why isn't he out hunting the coyotes then? People astound me some days.

I know we can't do anything about Hawks. So this is what we built. Its just the cheapest pvc pipe you can get at Home Depot. Wrapped all over with chicken wire. I rotate our ducks and chickens in it, and move it to different places every day. I want my birds to get grass, but I'm not brave enough to hope they go under a tree. We don't have any roosters. Sometimes there can be 7-12 hawks, just circling our property and the 3 or 4 around us. They are definitely very brave vultures!!!
And good grief!!! I think I'd go crazy if there was a problem with mink!!

I have two of these, one for chickens, one for turkeys, but I built them out of wood. I built the last one out of a crate that a generator came in at work. they are fun to make, and I may be making some to sell soon!

 

[lovinchickypoos]

Aleta, I think a 25 gauge needle will be fine, just draw slowly but not so slow as to allow clotting! It has been a couple years since I assisted at a vet clinic so I may be wrong on the number, but am sure there is a smaller one we would sometimes use on small veins on inner kitty thighs! It also helps to remove the tube cap and the needle to gently squirt the sample directly from the syringe to the tube rather than going through the needle.

 

[TeamCutler]

I get vaccines are controversial and I respect everyone's right to feel the way they do. However, nothing ruffles my feathers more than someone who knows more than a medical professional because they let their animals get busy or have studied some random topic that has nothing to do with applied medicine, parasitology, immunology, ect. But suddenly they are experts. This isn't just for chickens! I had no idea I would fall so madly in love with my birds. I initially made sure that my birds were vaccinated for mareks and new castles and were sourced responsibly. I knew that the location had never had an outbreak of any kind. Similarly any time I had added a bird to the flock I made sure that I knew where they came from. We want the best for our birds, who doesn't? If we weren't passionate about our stance there wouldn't be an issue would there? At work any time we have to explain to someone and their small child who loves this little hen that the bird has mareks and wont get better, i am certain I am in my own circle of hell. There are various types of vaccines and periods on when to administer for efficacy. If these Illnesses didnt exist we wouldn't vaccinate. There is a veterinarian in the Seattle area that does give talks on backyard chicken flock, parasites and I'm pretty sure vaccines as well. He even helped develop vaccinations.
Religion, politics, vaccines.... Don't push your beliefs on others- lets all be happy and nice. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. You have to know what you know and know what you don't know.

 

[TeamCutler]

Aleta- using anything smaller than a 25 you would run the risk of lysing the red blood cells. I'm not sure if that matters or alters any of Dr. Crespo's results. Are you using a wing vein?