What are YOUR experiences on how Dogs have changed??

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:
the thing is, these breeders of designer dogs are not trying to create a new breed....they are trying to make a buck by cashing in on the latest doggie craze. How many recognized breeds of dogs (and by recognized I mean by the AKC or UKC) were created by crossing two purebred dogs and then given cutsie names....puggle, cockapoo, maltipoo, yorkiepoo, etc and? None. All dog breeds were developed....none just fell out of the sky already done, but they were developed by breeders who cared about the breed and perfecting it.

And I disagree that dog shows are the worst thing to happen to dog breeding. SOME show breeders are bad for the breed, all puppy millls are bad for the breed and most (but NOT all) back yard breeders are bad for the breed. But a great many show breeders are passionate about preserving the breed's working ability along with conforming to breed standard. I see nothing wrong with that.

Not arguing on here with ya... I stand by what I said.


Almost every breed that is not over 300 years old which is most breeds were created by breeding some cutsy cross.... They only became reputable breeds years later. All went threw that "latest doggie craze" money making stage. Its a fact of breeding.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
They became reputable because the people doing the breeding went to great lengths to do it. With the new designer breeds, there is no push to even become a breed. They are perfectly happy to keep breeding Cockers/Labs/Goldens to poodles.

Reputable breeders live in fear of being the next craze. When 101 Dalmations came out, the rescue groups and reputable breeders were turning away buyers left and right. They won't sell to someone who isn't a good fit for their breed and saying "I saw the movie and they were SOOOOO cute" isn't going to cut it. The only people churning out pups to meet the demand were mills and backyard breeders - people who will give a dog to anyone who hands them money.
Ask a St. Bernard breeder how they feel about Beethoven. There are lots of Collie people who don't like Lassie. Why? because it fueled a craze of people breeding any collie-looking dog they could find and selling the puppies.
Then, after the craze is over, the rescues and reputable breeders are left to pick up the pieces. Now you have GSDs with rampant health issues. Pit Bulls that are people aggressive. Collies that are big empty puffs of hair, but no brains. Dobies with skin issues and a public belief that, when they reach a certain age their brain will explode and they turn on their owners.

 

[Chickhick]

I used to have working Border Collies, but as time goes by, I have gravitated to more laid back breeds, but those who can still do a job. Now I have 2 Black and Tan Coonhounds and an Anatolian. In a couple of weeks my new baby Coonhound will come home, too. I still love and admire the hyper workers, but I really like my dogs to be fully satisfied, and it is very hard to fully satisfy a Border Collie, even with a pasture full of sheep. My Coonhounds are always happy! It is like they have an on/off switch, and always want to do whatever I want to do. With Coonhounds I have found that I get everything out of them that I want in a dog, but without so much work and worry.

I don't like the new designer breeds either, because they are (for the most part) not bred for a functional purpose. For instance, to breed a big-eyed dog (Pug) to an "I've-got-to-run-through-underbrush-and-briars" kind of dog (Beagle) is ludicrous. It is just asking for trouble. When the breeds we now consider to be pure breeds were developed, they were bred for a purpose, even the little companion dogs. I like purebreds because you know what you are getting to a large extent. (Not just looks and size, but also temperament and activity level and instinctive behaviors.)

And as far as all breeders just breeding for what sells, that just isn't true for everyone. There are some breeders who breed right, and will spend thousands of dollars to get exactly the stud who they feel has the best genetics to match with their lines, even if it mean going clear across the country to get the breeding done, missing lots of time at work, all for no bigger price on the puppies than if they used a more convenient stud.

 

[redhen]

I'm still getting me a sheepadoodle someday...

I could care less if they are "mutts". What moron doesnt know they are mutts??

They're all still dogs though.

I think the only time i will buy "pure" again, is for my Saints and i'm also dying for a Clumber Spaniel...

Other than that, ... i could care less about them being "pure". And trust me. I have had many pure breed dogs and cats. And never ONE time have i ever turned in their papers.
I just went with the "pure" breed those times cause i liked the look and temperment of the breeds and i couldnt get the exact look i wanted with a mix breed.

But now i want a Sheepadoodle, cause i like their looks.

Hell, i have a papered Saint right NOW. That does NOT look even look like a pure Saint. Soo.. even though she DOES have papers, i just tell everyone shes a mix, because its just easier than explaining that she DOES have papers...blah..blah...

So yeah, papers can be a big fat joke too.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:
They became reputable because the people doing the breeding went to great lengths to do it

A few people did with each new cross while most people jumped on the bandwagon selling the cross for years. Same thing that is going on with most new crosses. A few are trying to make a new breed an most are crossing cause it makes money. Nothing new is happening.

Besides, its not the breeders pushing each dog fad its the buyer. Most people breed dogs that people want. If they sell they breed more if they dont they dont. I get calls all the time asking me if I breed or know someone that cross breeds X or Y type of dog. I could have sold 50 Carolina pinches this year if I wanted to go that way.

I breed pugs cause I like them but if the puppies didn't sell I would not be breeding them. That just life. I cant keep 50 dogs.

An no way I would let a AKC show dog in to my breeding program.......

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
lol You'd be amazed how many people don't know they are mutts!! And these people pay $1500 plus for the doodle mixes and then say "but he has papers!" The problem is, no reputable breeder is going to allow their stock to be used to create mixes. So the breeders use whatever dogs they have available. They generally don't do any healthtesting, relying on the belief that a mixed breed dog can't get hip dysplasia or any other inherited illness. Actually, you have TWICE the diseases to worry about.

No, papers don't mean anything. A handwritten pedigree saying "mother: Dawn father: Bruno" serves the same purpose. The AKC is just a record-keeper. They don't require anything other than the proper paper-work to be submitted with the correct fees.


To rebelcowboy, I will use my breed the GSD as an example. The GSD was created in Germany. Even today, you can NOT breed a GSD without permission of the club. Well, you can, but the dogs can't be registered and are pretty much worthless. The breed began to fill a niche. Max wanted a specific look and style and bred dogs to fill that. Careful record-keeping, culling of undesirable dogs, searching and experimenting. Not to mention the GSD wasn't just a "cross" but a mixture of several different types of dog.

A good breeder, first and foremost, breeds dogs that THEY want. The public is secondary. I don't know any breeder that makes money on their dogs. It's not impossible, but it's pretty dang hard. Health-testing, titles, matching the correct dogs, then screening buyers. The breeders I know turn away more buyers than they sell pups. If the right match isn't there for a pup, then that dog stays there. My mentor just got rid of the last pup from his last litter, at 7 months old. He was a high-drive dog and needed the right home.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

So all your friends are so rich that they don't have to make a living? Every breeder I know makes good money breeding dogs. If they didn't they couldn't do it. Breeding dogs right is not something you can do part time as a hobby. They put there full time in it an there reputation depends on it, as does there income.


I make good money doing it but its a lot of work.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
I just know the GSD world. People there push to the small hobby breeder. They work day jobs, breeding dogs is their passion, not a job. Or one spouse works and the other deals 99% with the dogs. The money they make goes back into the dogs.

Here is a breakdown that was passed on to me by one of my mentors....

If a more dollars and cents breakdown is helpful, here's one for the history of one of our broodbitches, Raven. Though again, this is going to vary widely from breeder to breeder so is hardly representative of breeders as a whole. Just one example.

Initial price: $1200 (in this case we bred her ourselves, but price still applies)

Health testing.
Hip/elbow prelims: $150 (and we get x-rays cheap compared to what most have to pay. I'd say the going rate for a set of OFAs is more about double this.)
Hip/elbow OFAs: $185
OFA DM: $65
OFA Cardiac: $35
OFA Patellas: $35
CERF: $35
Thyroid panel every couple of years: $150x2=$300 thus far
So total for health checks: $805


Titling costs. She has a slew of titles, way more than would be considered required for proving breed worthiness. As I said in the previous post, I couldn’t even quantify the thousands of dollars, or thousands of hours (time is money!), spent training to this level, or break it down on a puppy by puppy or litter by litter basis. But let’s just say it’s a LOT. All her titles represent well over $1000 just in trial entry fees alone.

So cost of one broodbitch, just in terms of purchase price, health testing and titling costs is $3000. And that doesn't include any regular upkeep of the dog for her lifetime, or any of the training that went into those titles since I only counted the actual trial entry fees. So saying $3000 is beyond being conservative.

Now for breeding. Just going off memory here so not accurate down to the last dollar, but not far off.

Litter 1 – 8 puppies

Pre breeding vet check up and brucellosis test: $100
Progesterone tests to time ovulation: 4 x $50 = $200
Stud fee: $1000
Travel to stud 300+ miles away (gas, 2 nights hotel, etc…): $300
Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy: $90
Additional food for dam for last few weeks of pregnancy and through weaning: $200
Wormer for puppies: $55
Albon for puppies: $70
Food for pups from weaning through sending home: $300
Vaccinations for pups: $75
Fecal test for pups: $50
Microchips for pups: 8 x $15 = $120
AKC registrations: $180

Total litter cost of $2740. For 8 pups equals $342.50 per pup. But none of that figures in all that went into the grump before breeding her, or the costs of the whole puppy whelping and raising set up with whelping box and kennel and assorted supplies. That is just the costs directly attributable to this particular liter.

As far as profit. One pup given away for free. Other 7 sold for $1200 each. Total puppy income of $8400. So on paper, that shows a profit of about $5660, which comes out to around $700 per pup. Though it only appears to be profit since we're not including any of the costs that went into having a good broodbitch or the appropriate facilities for whelping and raising a litter.

But now figure in all the time. 24 hours non stop vigil for whelping. At least 2 hours per day devoted to the pups in the first 4 weeks or so until weaning, and at least double that from weaning through to when they go home, at least 3-4 hours per customer interviewing and screening them, and many more hours spent on people who didn’t make the cut to even be considered for a pup, all the pedigree research that happened prior to the breeding, 3 days out of town travelling to get the breeding done, vet visits, preparing meals for the pups and cleaning up after them, doing laundry practically around the clock, etc… In terms of dollar per man hour, we’d make more “profit” flipping burgers. If the costs of raising and maintaining the grump for the previous years and doing everything needed to prove her breed worthy were figured in, we’d be paying them for the privilege of flipping their burgers.

Litter 2 - 12 pups.

Not going to break it all out again, but to sum up stud fee was higher, travel costs lower, costs for caring for all the pups proportionately higher as there were half again as many pups, time spent a whole LOT higher as 12 is more like having 2 litters at once and most socialization and outings had to be done twice, broken into 2 trips of 6 since 12 is just way too many pups to keep track of at one time. Kept 2 pups ourselves so no income from them. I don’t feel like doing all the math but profit would still come out to about the same in terms of per pup costs and profit.


Litter 3 - 2 pups???

We're still waiting to see if we even get 2 live pups, and this situation really illustrates the other side of breeding.

Pre breeding vet check up and brucellosis test: $100
Progesterone tests to time ovulation: 5 x $50 = $250
Stud fee: $1500
AI breeding costs as stud is 2000 miles away and stud owner decided she doesn’t want to do natural breedings with him to outside grump any longer.
Semen collection and shipping kit: 2 x $104 = $208
Semen collection at stud’s vet: 2 x $174 = $348
Transcervical insemination at our repro vet: 2 x $272
Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy: $90
Second ultrasound to make sure she’s still pregnant: $90

Already $2858 invested. Per the most recent ultrasound, she only has 2 live pups in there. So costs are already at $1429 per puppy and we will still have all the associated care and raising costs and time coming up in the next few weeks. Plus if things don’t get a move on in the next day or two, we may be facing a c-section to the tune of another $1500 or so. Also wouldn’t be out of line to add in another $1000+ in costs for the 2 previous AI breeding attempts with the same stud (but different grump) that produced no puppies before finally getting a breeding that took and produced this hopefully upcoming litter of 2.

Likely one pup will be given away to a close friend for free, on a co-own, and the other sold for $1500. Which means in terms of bottom line on this litter we're already taking a huge loss, and will get even deeper in the hole before it's said and done and pups go home. A whole lot deeper if a c-section is required.

Of course, a lot of corners could be cut in a lot of places. Feed cheaper food, less vet care, not registering the individual pups, not microchipping, cheaper vaccinations and wormers, etc… And using one’s own stud is the most obvious cost cutter. But as every grump is different, her ideal breeding match is also different. Thus the chances of a breeder having a stud, or even multiple studs, that are truly good matches for all their grump is slim and in many cases using an inhouse stud is sacrificing quality of the pups for cost and convenience.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Im not goung to break it all down like that but here's mine.
Mind you I dont show an never will.


Finding the right two dogs(more time than money) an raising them up to 2 years old with all the tests costs between $1500 an $2000.

Looking an knowing she is ready $0
Breeding $0
Looking an knowing she is pregnant $0
Extra food $20
Shots under $20
Worming under $.75

So at the end of the first litter I'm in the hole by about $500. By the end of the second litter, assuming everything goes good I'm in the green by about $1000.
Mind you my dogs are my pets an I would have had them anyway so the adult expenses are debatabley not countable.

Everything does not always go that well. Like Bo. He is a great dog but did not meat my standard once he was 2 so I ate 2 years of expenses but that's life.

Pre breeding vet check up and brucellosis test: $100
Progesterone tests to time ovulation: 4 x $50 = $200
Stud fee: $1000
Travel to stud 300+ miles away (gas, 2 nights hotel, etc…): $300
Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy: $90
^ no way I'm doing all that stuff^
Additional food for dam for last few weeks of pregnancy and through weaning: $200 Love my small dogs
Wormer for puppies: $55 Vet cost I assume?
Albon for puppies: $70 Were they sick?
Food for pups from weaning through sending home: $300 Still love my small dogs
Vaccinations for pups: $75 Vet cost I assume?
Fecal test for pups: $50 Microscopes are cheap
v Dont do this stuff down here ether V
Microchips for pups: 8 x $15 = $120
AKC registrations: $180​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Ok...this thread isn't a breeder-specific thread. Let's drop the breeding style discussion, it's just going to get ugly eventually. Both have made your points, thanks