WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE NEW CALIFORNIA STATE CHICKEN CONFINEMENT LAW FOR EGG FARMERS ?????

[Nupe]

I don't see how that makes it different...

other then the economy was supposedly worse.

 

[Bo Garrett]

OK, let's get away from chickens for a moment and look at swine, most people who are ignorant of commercial swine operations hate confinement crates for farrowing sow, correct? Now let's look at the reasoning for why we place swine on concrete and sows in particular in farrowing crates.
1. There are numerous diseases that swine will eventually contract if left in open outdoor pens including but not limited to pseudo rabies and brucellosis.
2. Parasites are better controlled in a confined environment.
3. These sows are large cumbersome animals, if left to farrow (birth baby piglets) on their own in open pens the sows end up killing many if not all of the piglets due to laying on them and crushing them to death! Now there's humane treatment!
4. The piglets when born in an insanitary environment such as an outdoor dirt floored pen will develop diseases which are typically mitigated by sanitized confinement operations.
5. The sows are only in the farrowing crates for short periods of their life while nursing piglets, typically three to five weeks until the piglets are weaned and eating starter feed.

The hen mentioned in the above post may have been in a lower body condition score but was still healthy enough to produce eggs on occasion and she did have the option of catching insects and eating any grass available, and as far as chickens are concerned, mine would rather drink out of a mud hole with a cow patty in it that drink out of a freshly sanitized watering container so that point is moot.
We have a great problem in this country of attributing human characteristics to non-humans and when we do so we skew the view of the world. Most likely, animal sympathizers such as PETA, ASPCA and the like had a very heart wrenching television campaign in California that swayed many a Liberal vote and maybe even a few Conservative votes, by showing exaggerated and possibly "set-up" situations in layer farms. Hens in cages are in no more distress than sows in crates or cattle in feed yards; are they in their natural environment, no, but are they being tortured and abused at the hands of the farmers that depend upon them for a living? Absolutely not!
Once again, I have been in these farms, seen first hand and know. If you have enjoyed paying $3, $4 and $5 per gallon for gasoline, wait till your paying that for a dozen eggs! And just wait till the same people come by your place on a rainy day and see your chickens walking around in the rain and getting wet by their own choice but your are told they must be kept in a housed environment for their protection from this point going forward; think it's silly.....so did laying house farmers!
Lastly, if you don't like the practices, don't by the product; that is the fastest way to effect change. The reason change didn't occur, people kept buying the eggs, now you won't be able to afford them!

 

[hen madame]

Actually no we don't. The US was never intended to be a democracy. It is a representative republic. HUGE difference. True democracy is about as evil as you can get. If the majority votes that all blonds be put to the sword then by your "logic" it is good to go. The gov was not put in place to give us whatever the majority wants. It was put in place to protect the rights of ALL of us. Nothing more, nothing less. Please explain to me how some stranger should have the right to have a say in how I raise my birds? The only right that stranger has is to take his business elsewhere and try and convince others to do the same. If they can convince enough people to go elsewhere, then I either change my ways or go out of business. Edit to add... I do not run a factory farm. I own just 5 very spoiled hens.

As for guns... Like my daughters t-shirt says, "Don't like guns, don't buy one." They are simply a tool. Any evil done with them originates in the hearts of man and will be done regardless of the tool. My firearms are not offensive weapons. They are defensive tools. Their only reasons for existing is to defend myself and my loved ones and to put food on the table. They are no different than the multiple fire extinguishers I keep around the house; I pray every day that I never have to use either. But should I ever need to use one, I'll thank God that I had them.

As I said above I feel zero sympathy for the people who keep any livestock in horrid conditions.

Yes, I am well aware we are a constitutional republic (hence the sort of comment). I was being a bit snarky and generally tired of folks thinking their point of view is the only "real" consideration. As far as guns go, if people with evil intentions couldn't get their hands on guns so easily perhaps many of the horrors we have witnessed in this country would not have happened. I just think a waiting period, background checks, and a registry aren't too much to ask...so that my rights (to life) are protected. Just my opinion. But let us get back to chickens......

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Huh, interesting. I had no idea. I googled about the HSUS and came up with this:

http://www.humanesocietydonations.org/making-donation-count/?gclid=CJuS06_rgsMCFUGUfgodeoYAdw

It seems, while they are doing good works, they are deceiving their constituents about where the money goes.

I am not always against regulation, I think there is a time and place for it. But those on this thread making anti-regulation statements make some good points.

.

A direct quote from the HSUS own web sight:
The HSUS promotes eating with conscience and embracing the Three Rs—reducing the consumption of meat and other animal-based foods; refining the diet by avoiding products from the worst production systems (e.g., switching to cage-free eggs); and replacing meat and other animal-based foods in the diet with plant-based foods.

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/eating/

"OTHER ANIMAL BASED FOODS INCLUDE EGGS AND HONEY.
http://www.animalrights.about.com/od/animalrights101/tp/AnimalRightsFactsMyths.htm

Myth number 4: Animal rights activists protest hunting but buy meat in a supermarket.

Fact: Some people who eat meat may protest hunting, but animal rights activists oppose both hunting and buying meat from a supermarket. Animal rights activists advocate veganism, and do not consume any meat, eggs, dairy or other animal products. Did that say eggs?

Myth number 7: Animal rights activists protest whaling, but not the killing of cows.

Fact: While some people oppose the killing of whales because various whale species are threatened or endangered, or out of a belief that whales are special, animal rights activists oppose whaling because they believe it is wrong to kill [any] sentient beings for food. Animal rights activists advocate veganism, but in general, [the] protests against the killing of cows, pigs or chickens do not garner as much media coverage as protests against whaling, which might explain how this myth arose.

Click on the link to read the whole laundry list of myths surrounding HSUS

And finally this question:

Aren’t some of these groups mainstream? Activists do their best to practice positive PR. But evidence suggests they are much more radical than their image sometimes suggests.

• Less than 1 percent of Americans identify themselves as vegans. The Humane Society of the United States, playing the numbers, insists it’s not a vegan advocacy group—just an animal welfare group seeking modest farming reforms. But in 2006, HSUS’s then-Vice President for farm animal issues told an animal rights forum that HSUS’s push for “cage-free” was really just one step towards “get[ting] rid of the entire industry.” She explained, “We don’t want any of these animals to be raised and killed.”
• https://www.consumerfreedom.com/issues/animal-rights/

 

[chickengeorgeto]

OK, let's get away from chickens for a moment and look at swine, most people who are ignorant of commercial swine operations hate confinement crates for farrowing sow, correct? Now let's look at the reasoning for why we place swine on concrete and sows in particular in farrowing crates.
1. There are numerous diseases that swine will eventually contract if left in open outdoor pens including but not limited to pseudo rabies and brucellosis.
2. Parasites are better controlled in a confined environment.
3. These sows are large cumbersome animals, if left to farrow (birth baby piglets) on their own in open pens the sows end up killing many if not all of the piglets due to laying on them and crushing them to death! Now there's humane treatment!
4. The piglets when born in an insanitary environment such as an outdoor dirt floored pen will develop diseases which are typically mitigated by sanitized confinement operations.
5. The sows are only in the farrowing crates for short periods of their life while nursing piglets, typically three to five weeks until the piglets are weaned and eating starter feed.

The hen mentioned in the above post may have been in a lower body condition score but was still healthy enough to produce eggs on occasion and she did have the option of catching insects and eating any grass available, and as far as chickens are concerned, mine would rather drink out of a mud hole with a cow patty in it that drink out of a freshly sanitized watering container so that point is moot.
We have a great problem in this country of attributing human characteristics to non-humans and when we do so we skew the view of the world. Most likely, animal sympathizers such as PETA, ASPCA and the like had a very heart wrenching television campaign in California that swayed many a Liberal vote and maybe even a few Conservative votes, by showing exaggerated and possibly "set-up" situations in layer farms. Hens in cages are in no more distress than sows in crates or cattle in feed yards; are they in their natural environment, no, but are they being tortured and abused at the hands of the farmers that depend upon them for a living? Absolutely not!
Once again, I have been in these farms, seen first hand and know. If you have enjoyed paying $3, $4 and $5 per gallon for gasoline, wait till your paying that for a dozen eggs! And just wait till the same people come by your place on a rainy day and see your chickens walking around in the rain and getting wet by their own choice but your are told they must be kept in a housed environment for their protection from this point going forward; think it's silly.....so did laying house farmers!
Lastly, if you don't like the practices, don't by the product; that is the fastest way to effect change. The reason change didn't occur, people kept buying the eggs, now you won't be able to afford them!

Oh there will be plenty of eggs, they just won't be produced in this country. Mexico can produce all the eggs that Californians can eat and unless NAFTA or other free trade treaties are repealed by all parties or else repudiated, abrogated, or violated by the US.


(The last time that we tried that was in 2009 and the World Court ordered us to pay Brazilian Cotton farmers $400,000,000 dollars per year to grow more cotton than the world needed. This almost killed the US cotton producers. because the world price of cotton went down to 1958 levels.)

The things that regulations don't make insanely expensive ends up making products ridiculously cheep. So be prepared for either $20 a dozen eggs or making 40 cents an hour (the minimum in 1958) wages.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

You are fooling yourself if you think hens in a commercial laying house are laying 2 eggs a week. If a flock was doing that poorly, the ownwer would not think twice about sending them off to the soup factory. Two eggs a week would not make him a profit.

5 or 6 eggs a week won't either.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

.... As for the militant vegetarian attitude of the HSUS you claim, perhaps we need a little bit of that. Perhaps it will increase awareness of the conditions of how animals are kept.....

Send me a PM with your physical address so that I can send your local animal welfare organization over to your house to verify that your poultry are dancing their happy dance.

 

[pdirt]

Quote:
Thanks for posting all that. Unfortunately, the most damning quote-link has gone missing, the one at the end about "get[ting] rid of the entire industry." No internet archive of it either on the Wayback Machine.

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm not a fan of dogma, of any flavor. I'm not against veganism (or any other dietary regime), just the dogmatic kind. Some people I think can thrive on a vegan diet...but we all have different dietary requirements, which the dogma just blatantly does not acknowledge. Trust me, I've tried to eat vegan. My energy plummeted and only bounced back when I returned to eating animal protein. If I could do it long term, I would. I think it's a noble cause. Hat's off to those whose health thrives long term. But I am not going to allow my health to suffer at the cost of philosophy.

Personally, I think most Americans eat too much meat. Not just any meat, but meat raised with poor/improper nutrition that poisons people. But properly raised meat, if done on a mass scale, would probably only be marginally more expensive. It's only much more expensive now because there is such a small market for it.

 

[AccidentalFarmr]

OK, let's get away from chickens for a moment and look at swine, most people who are ignorant of commercial swine operations hate confinement crates for farrowing sow, correct? Now let's look at the reasoning for why we place swine on concrete and sows in particular in farrowing crates.
1. There are numerous diseases that swine will eventually contract if left in open outdoor pens including but not limited to pseudo rabies and brucellosis.
2. Parasites are better controlled in a confined environment.
3. These sows are large cumbersome animals, if left to farrow (birth baby piglets) on their own in open pens the sows end up killing many if not all of the piglets due to laying on them and crushing them to death! Now there's humane treatment!
4. The piglets when born in an insanitary environment such as an outdoor dirt floored pen will develop diseases which are typically mitigated by sanitized confinement operations.
5. The sows are only in the farrowing crates for short periods of their life while nursing piglets, typically three to five weeks until the piglets are weaned and eating starter feed.

You do realize that hogs raised in confinement are pumped full of antibiotics to keep them from getting sick due to the conditions in which they're kept right? They don't control parasites so much as they constantly treat for them. Commercial sows are penned up in farrowing crates because they tend not to be good mothers..... laying on their young is a trait that can be avoided through selective breeding, something the commercial growers are not concerned with because they "fix" the problem; hogs that put on weight in record time is their goal even if it means wallowing in their own feces while they feed their young or grow out to market weight. Piglets are weaned sooner in confinement operations so they can get the sows bred back in a shorter amount of time.... it sure isn't for the piglets' sake.

Hogs raised on pasture, using managed rotational grazing that defeats the parasite life cycle by constant moving from paddock to paddock and selectively bred for traits that avoid things such as crushing their young avoids everything you've listed above and makes for healthier happier pigs. Ignorance indeed.

 

[Nupe]

You do realize that hogs raised in confinement are pumped full of antibiotics to keep them from getting sick due to the conditions in which they're kept right? They don't control parasites so much as they constantly treat for them. Commercial sows are penned up in farrowing crates because they tend not to be good mothers..... laying on their young is a trait that can be avoided through selective breeding, something the commercial growers are not concerned with because they "fix" the problem; hogs that put on weight in record time is their goal even if it means wallowing in their own feces while they feed their young or grow out to market weight. Piglets are weaned sooner in confinement operations so they can get the sows bred back in a shorter amount of time.... it sure isn't for the piglets' sake.

Hogs raised on pasture, using managed rotational grazing that defeats the parasite life cycle by constant moving from paddock to paddock and selectively bred for traits that avoid things such as crushing their young avoids everything you've listed above and makes for healthier happier pigs. Ignorance indeed.

I've been inside a commercial hog farm (finisher), it was nothing like you described. The floor is grated and the waste drops down below into a reservoir that gets flushed into a treated moat. The smell wasn't nearly as bad as I imagined it would be. Antibiotics are controlled by the integrator. If the grower notices a problem then he/she informs the integrator and they handle diagnosis and treatment. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to keep these giant animals "pumped full of antibiotics?"