Wheaten and Blue wheaten Marans Discussion Thread
- Thread starter snowbird
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Quote:
In a show a judge is either judging to the SOP or against the other birds/critters. How a bird/critter gets to the SOP isn't an issue. The issue is when someone buys a show winner which will not produce offspring meeting or coming close to the SOP then the word goes out very quickly that the bird/critter is not worth buying.
In a show a judge is either judging to the SOP or against the other birds/critters. How a bird/critter gets to the SOP isn't an issue. The issue is when someone buys a show winner which will not produce offspring meeting or coming close to the SOP then the word goes out very quickly that the bird/critter is not worth buying.
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- #1,133
Quote:
In a show a judge is either judging to the SOP or against the other birds/critters. How a bird/critter gets to the SOP isn't an issue. The issue is when someone buys a show winner which will not produce offspring meeting or coming close to the SOP then the word goes out very quickly that the bird/critter is not worth buying.
From what I am getting from this conversation I believe everyone one is in the belief that if you breed two very close to APA SOP fowl together then you should get mostly all very good chicks from these two fowl. Regardless of the breed this just does not usually happen in the show fowl world.
The old addage comes into mind " breed what produced the very good fowl first". If anyone is wanting to get a above percentage of good fowl, should not be breeding parti colored fowl as it is just not going to happen. Now if you would like to raise white, Black or blue you will have less to worry about on the different shades of color breeding. Look in the Poultry Press and you will see that a lot of one color fowl will win. On any color parti-colored fowl you will not get as many outstanding fowl from each mating. There will become a day when these one color Marans will beat the Parti-color Marans in the show room. Just remember in the USA most poultry shows are judged by the comparison method and not by a score card.
In a show a judge is either judging to the SOP or against the other birds/critters. How a bird/critter gets to the SOP isn't an issue. The issue is when someone buys a show winner which will not produce offspring meeting or coming close to the SOP then the word goes out very quickly that the bird/critter is not worth buying.
From what I am getting from this conversation I believe everyone one is in the belief that if you breed two very close to APA SOP fowl together then you should get mostly all very good chicks from these two fowl. Regardless of the breed this just does not usually happen in the show fowl world.
The old addage comes into mind " breed what produced the very good fowl first". If anyone is wanting to get a above percentage of good fowl, should not be breeding parti colored fowl as it is just not going to happen. Now if you would like to raise white, Black or blue you will have less to worry about on the different shades of color breeding. Look in the Poultry Press and you will see that a lot of one color fowl will win. On any color parti-colored fowl you will not get as many outstanding fowl from each mating. There will become a day when these one color Marans will beat the Parti-color Marans in the show room. Just remember in the USA most poultry shows are judged by the comparison method and not by a score card.
- Thread starter
- #1,134
Quote:
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
I don't like the whole single mating thing either - but I think that's what we get for wanting to breed to SOP and not just really being in it to win shows. I mean we get attached to our birds, keep all kinds of birds we should have culled, and have too much fun hanging out with them to say "sorry sister you don't make the cut!".
I'll probably never show a thing while I'm living here in Europe, but I still want to learn good culling and breeding practices, and shoot for a better flock. It is helpful just to know that I won't likely get a good roo and a good hen out of the same pairing.
I'll probably never show a thing while I'm living here in Europe, but I still want to learn good culling and breeding practices, and shoot for a better flock. It is helpful just to know that I won't likely get a good roo and a good hen out of the same pairing.
5 more eggs piping out of 8 set , i am getting alot of wheaten lol when it rains it pours ...lol and i have 20 more eggs to place in bator. i have 7 hens to ad this year and with careful culling for egg color i will keep a few of the hens , my small flock is kicking out consistant stock no odd colors , no nasty dark hens to cull,there just looking all the same all feathered legs there just wheaten marans produceing wheaten marans just breeding true, untill they wright the standard of perfection no one knows what they should look like , im glad i didnt go hatch crazy the first 2 years untill i got a nice group of 6 hens together now i am crazy hatching. i now have 5 months to wait to see egg color ,it always takes 7 months to get eggs from the new ones no matter the time of year i hatch chicks
Last edited:
Quote:
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
Don, I understand what you are saying as well. In my mind, it should work the way I want it to, but unfortuneatly, the genes and chickens don't see it my way!
If I was going to get hot and heavy into the show ring with chickens, I would do what it took to get to that end. So, if indeed single matings were necessary to get that "perfect" hen, then so be it. As in other animals, it is usually the case that the so called near perfect show specimens can't reproduce what they are, or even close!
Now, that said, when it comes to judging these birds, if the judges are just using the "comparison" method of judging instead of judging against the SOP for the breed/variety, aren't they just defeating the whole purpose? I mean, if there are a bunch of so-so hens being shown, and the judge picks the "best" of the so-so birds, where is the improvement for the breed going to come in? I recently saw an auction for eggs where they had a pic of a Wheaten hen posing in front of a bunch ot trophies and ribbons. Ok, she was a decent enough looking girl, but if I was breeding Wheatens, her color would've made her a candidate for the laying pen, and not the show ring. She looked utilitarian enough, that when bred to a roo that would help with the color in the offspring pullets, she could then be kept as a breeder, but she was not what I would consider a "show quality" hen based on her coloring. But yet, here she is a grand winner in the show ring. People get impressed with ribbons, buy the eggs, go home and breed this "show quality" stock, and produce more inferior looking birds. I guess what I am saying is that culling should be done by the breeders as well as by the critical eye of a judge. Judge by the SOP, not by comparing the best of the mediocre. If no birds are deserving of a blue ribbon, why not have the conviction to withhold the ribbons? Again, I'm living in my little perfect world, but I'm quite sure I'm not the only one...???
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
Don, I understand what you are saying as well. In my mind, it should work the way I want it to, but unfortuneatly, the genes and chickens don't see it my way!
Now, that said, when it comes to judging these birds, if the judges are just using the "comparison" method of judging instead of judging against the SOP for the breed/variety, aren't they just defeating the whole purpose? I mean, if there are a bunch of so-so hens being shown, and the judge picks the "best" of the so-so birds, where is the improvement for the breed going to come in? I recently saw an auction for eggs where they had a pic of a Wheaten hen posing in front of a bunch ot trophies and ribbons. Ok, she was a decent enough looking girl, but if I was breeding Wheatens, her color would've made her a candidate for the laying pen, and not the show ring. She looked utilitarian enough, that when bred to a roo that would help with the color in the offspring pullets, she could then be kept as a breeder, but she was not what I would consider a "show quality" hen based on her coloring. But yet, here she is a grand winner in the show ring. People get impressed with ribbons, buy the eggs, go home and breed this "show quality" stock, and produce more inferior looking birds. I guess what I am saying is that culling should be done by the breeders as well as by the critical eye of a judge. Judge by the SOP, not by comparing the best of the mediocre. If no birds are deserving of a blue ribbon, why not have the conviction to withhold the ribbons? Again, I'm living in my little perfect world, but I'm quite sure I'm not the only one...???
i am afraid if they judge by sop and give ribons out acordanly how could they grade the birds ?
wouldthey garde like in a scool test ?
like a blue ribon would be 90 to 100 on a test ?and 80 to 90 would be second place ? so on and so forth
i have zero exp on shows , so forgive my lack of the way things work
i think the only way is to pass ribons out compared to whats showing on a certan day.... or should it be ribons for the closest to standard of poerfection if the latter is the case were marans are concerened the judge should leave the ribons at home
for now
Quote:
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
Don, I understand what you are saying as well. In my mind, it should work the way I want it to, but unfortuneatly, the genes and chickens don't see it my way!
If I was going to get hot and heavy into the show ring with chickens, I would do what it took to get to that end. So, if indeed single matings were necessary to get that "perfect" hen, then so be it. As in other animals, it is usually the case that the so called near perfect show specimens can't reproduce what they are, or even close!
Now, that said, when it comes to judging these birds, if the judges are just using the "comparison" method of judging instead of judging against the SOP for the breed/variety, aren't they just defeating the whole purpose? I mean, if there are a bunch of so-so hens being shown, and the judge picks the "best" of the so-so birds, where is the improvement for the breed going to come in? I recently saw an auction for eggs where they had a pic of a Wheaten hen posing in front of a bunch ot trophies and ribbons. Ok, she was a decent enough looking girl, but if I was breeding Wheatens, her color would've made her a candidate for the laying pen, and not the show ring. She looked utilitarian enough, that when bred to a roo that would help with the color in the offspring pullets, she could then be kept as a breeder, but she was not what I would consider a "show quality" hen based on her coloring. But yet, here she is a grand winner in the show ring. People get impressed with ribbons, buy the eggs, go home and breed this "show quality" stock, and produce more inferior looking birds. I guess what I am saying is that culling should be done by the breeders as well as by the critical eye of a judge. Judge by the SOP, not by comparing the best of the mediocre. If no birds are deserving of a blue ribbon, why not have the conviction to withhold the ribbons? Again, I'm living in my little perfect world, but I'm quite sure I'm not the only one...???
wouldthey garde like in a scool test ?
like a blue ribon would be 90 to 100 on a test ?and 80 to 90 would be second place ? so on and so forth
i have zero exp on shows , so forgive my lack of the way things work
i think the only way is to pass ribons out compared to whats showing on a certan day.... or should it be ribons for the closest to standard of poerfection if the latter is the case were marans are concerened the judge should leave the ribons at home
for now
Quote:
Debbi, I understand what you are saying but it just will not happen the way you would like . Look at the Black Copper we have copper straw and Mahogany, We can use a combination of these colors in our breeding pen right ? I think everyone is of the mind that if you breed two birds that are very good looking to the SOP should produce a high majority of good SOP type fowl.
Until this point of breeding Marans no one has been willing to cull out the Marans producing the fowl with faults and DQ's so they will not produce good quality until breeders are willing to do the culling. Most people seem to be saying they are all I have so will breed what I have. This way we have another generation of culls .
Don, I understand what you are saying as well. In my mind, it should work the way I want it to, but unfortuneatly, the genes and chickens don't see it my way!
Now, that said, when it comes to judging these birds, if the judges are just using the "comparison" method of judging instead of judging against the SOP for the breed/variety, aren't they just defeating the whole purpose? I mean, if there are a bunch of so-so hens being shown, and the judge picks the "best" of the so-so birds, where is the improvement for the breed going to come in? I recently saw an auction for eggs where they had a pic of a Wheaten hen posing in front of a bunch ot trophies and ribbons. Ok, she was a decent enough looking girl, but if I was breeding Wheatens, her color would've made her a candidate for the laying pen, and not the show ring. She looked utilitarian enough, that when bred to a roo that would help with the color in the offspring pullets, she could then be kept as a breeder, but she was not what I would consider a "show quality" hen based on her coloring. But yet, here she is a grand winner in the show ring. People get impressed with ribbons, buy the eggs, go home and breed this "show quality" stock, and produce more inferior looking birds. I guess what I am saying is that culling should be done by the breeders as well as by the critical eye of a judge. Judge by the SOP, not by comparing the best of the mediocre. If no birds are deserving of a blue ribbon, why not have the conviction to withhold the ribbons? Again, I'm living in my little perfect world, but I'm quite sure I'm not the only one...???
Randy,
There is a point system that they go by, or should. Like for instance, the comb is worth a total 5 points. Anything worth a deduction from the perfect 5, as in, an extra or lacking point on the comb, would be a 1/2 point deduction from the possible 5 points. So it goes for the rest of the body. That is where judging by the SOP comes in. If none of the birds come up with enough points in the total count to come close to qualifying as Marans, then WHY would a judge give the best of the culls a blue ribbon?? I know it's possible to do, there were a few judges in the dog show world that did indeed do exactly this! Of course, due to the very political nature of the show ring, this judge was not looked upon in favor. Many agreed and applauded his decision, others who had an interest in the dog in question, wanted the judge run out of town on a rail! So it goes in any show ring. Big names and politics apply. Hopefully, not so much in the chicken world, but some of the birds I see winning sure do make me question it. Winning ribbons does nothing to help to continue the breed in ways of egg production, hardiness, temperament, color, type, or just plain chicken function. It is what it is...a beauty contest. And beauty, is certainly, in the eye of the beholder.
There is a point system that they go by, or should. Like for instance, the comb is worth a total 5 points. Anything worth a deduction from the perfect 5, as in, an extra or lacking point on the comb, would be a 1/2 point deduction from the possible 5 points. So it goes for the rest of the body. That is where judging by the SOP comes in. If none of the birds come up with enough points in the total count to come close to qualifying as Marans, then WHY would a judge give the best of the culls a blue ribbon?? I know it's possible to do, there were a few judges in the dog show world that did indeed do exactly this! Of course, due to the very political nature of the show ring, this judge was not looked upon in favor. Many agreed and applauded his decision, others who had an interest in the dog in question, wanted the judge run out of town on a rail! So it goes in any show ring. Big names and politics apply. Hopefully, not so much in the chicken world, but some of the birds I see winning sure do make me question it. Winning ribbons does nothing to help to continue the breed in ways of egg production, hardiness, temperament, color, type, or just plain chicken function. It is what it is...a beauty contest. And beauty, is certainly, in the eye of the beholder.
- Thread starter
- #1,140
Debbi, In the past a score card was used in most chicken shows, due to the amount of chickens a judge is required to judge in a given day the score card was dropped for the comparrison method. Will say that antone that breeds a variety of fowl and studys the breed SOP can usually walk down an aisle of fowl and pick the top two or three fowl in the class. There a lot of very good judge's out there.
If you breed a breed of fowl and raise any kind of numbers and study the breed standard you will most likely know more about the breed than the Judge. I have showed just about everything that possibly be showed over the years. The hardest person to try and explain how it works is someone that has never showed a chicken. The main thing to remember is breed to the SOP and not what you see a judge place in a showroom. All you are getting with the placement of a judge is an opinion.
If you breed a breed of fowl and raise any kind of numbers and study the breed standard you will most likely know more about the breed than the Judge. I have showed just about everything that possibly be showed over the years. The hardest person to try and explain how it works is someone that has never showed a chicken. The main thing to remember is breed to the SOP and not what you see a judge place in a showroom. All you are getting with the placement of a judge is an opinion.
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