Wheaten and Blue wheaten Marans Discussion Thread

[Debbi]

Quote:


Agreed. It is especially helpful if they breed the breed you are showing! A win under a Marans breeder/judge, to me, would be more meaningful. But, even then, my interpretation of the SOP may not be their's. I want beauty and function, so as far as what fad or flavor may be winning in the show cage, I'll try to breed toward the SOP.

 

[chickendales]

i know this not a maran but out my wheatons
here it now

here at couple days too week

out two wheaton parents

 

[knjinnm]

Quote:
Hi Don,

Instead of opinion I would say a judge is awarding places based on the entries available. Yes, some judges are biased for certain traits but as mentioned above those judges won't be invited back to judge shows.
One of the flaws of any show is as Debbi mentioned a person enters their bird/critter wins and walks away believing they have a show quality bird/critter and continues to reproduce the same quality stock.
IMO it's imperative for judges to make comments on the entrants entry form especially when place winner bird/critter is really not close to the SOP. Of course I'm assuming a judge would DQ any entry that did not meet the minimum breed standards.
Another factor is egg color. Most Marans breeders, IMO, started keeping Marans because of their unusual egg color. So instead of building the structure first (outside shape and color) they opted for interior design (egg color) first. Now they are trying to back into correct body shape and feather color while trying not to lose egg color. Which is why I admire Randy for his willingness to cull hard and work with only the best of his stock.
Joe

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Hi Don,

Instead of opinion I would say a judge is awarding places based on the entries available. Yes, some judges are biased for certain traits but as mentioned above those judges won't be invited back to judge shows.
One of the flaws of any show is as Debbi mentioned a person enters their bird/critter wins and walks away believing they have a show quality bird/critter and continues to reproduce the same quality stock.
IMO it's imperative for judges to make comments on the entrants entry form especially when place winner bird/critter is really not close to the SOP. Of course I'm assuming a judge would DQ any entry that did not meet the minimum breed standards.
Another factor is egg color. Most Marans breeders, IMO, started keeping Marans because of their unusual egg color. So instead of building the structure first (outside shape and color) they opted for interior design (egg color) first. Now they are trying to back into correct body shape and feather color while trying not to lose egg color. Which is why I admire Randy for his willingness to cull hard and work with only the best of his stock.
Joe

Unfortunately you are correct. It is based on entries available. If it is a county fair kind of show, judges usually let some things pass. They should always write a critique, so that the person understands that the bird got a first, but really isn't the best example of the breed. Fairs also many times use unlicensed judges and the winners don't understand that, so you will see awards that are not justified. Since the Marans is just now included in the SOP there will be some judges that will make errors. I know of a CA judge that DQ'ed a bunch of Marans for stubs. I talked to him and he said "they just looked like some bird you would find down the road". Needless to say I let him know he was making errors. He didn't read the breed description that was printed in the APA newsletter with the description of the Marans before they were excepted. Needless to say this is not a judge that I would recommend to judge any kind of show. It is the judges responsibility to keep current and add new descriptions to his SOP until they are reprinted.

If your birds are judged by 3 APA judges and they place about the same with the same type of competition, then you can be pretty sure that is about how your bird will place in any show. In big shows we judge by comparison of the birds and only use the points to separate the best in the class. As noted.......judges are human and with that comes bias and other human traits that skew some of the judging. By and large I think exhibitors get a pretty good idea of where their birds stand from the results of the judging and the comments from the rest of the exhibitors.......if the exhibitors are who know their breed. On the other hand there are folks that THINK they know their breed, but they really don't.

To me....the best thing about showing is that I am able to see what other breeders are doing with their breeding regardless of the outcome of the show. Don't get me wrong..I don't go to shows to lose, but at this stage I can judge how my birds stack up against the rest. Any long time breeder can do this after a while.

When judging I put a lot of notes if I place a marginal bird, so that the owner doesn't think they have a champion when they really have a mediocre or worse bird. Many times I will give them a fifth or so even if there are no other birds in the class. That always ends up with a conversation and that is where I tell them that the bird is not very good...so it does not deserve a first place even though it was first by default.

Walt

 

[knjinnm]

Quote:
Hi Walt,
Great comments.
I didn't realize poultry judges had the ability to not award first, second or third places. Is that the case in all shows?
Joe

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Hi Walt,
Great comments.
I didn't realize poultry judges had the ability to not award first, second or third places. Is that the case in all shows?
Joe

Judges NEVER have to give a bird a placement.....any placement, if the bird is not worthy. They can put 1-10th place on a single bird if they want to..or just writing something else on the card....like.. Not Worthy of placement. This can embarrass a person though. Many judges just put a first place and keep on going without thinking of the consequences. For me it is easier to deal with a marginal bird in the beginning. How many times have we read on BYC " I had Champion" and you look at the bird and think " How did that happen"? All they hear or see is: Champion or first place etc". The new exhibitor does not know that the bird is really not very good. It is the judges responsiblilty to let an exhibitor know when they are showing a marginal bird. We do that by DQing it or if it is close enough, by making comments so that the exhibitor is not mislead about the real quality of the bird. I am humane in my comments and sometimes just put "see the judge". That saves the embarrassment of putting ("this bird should be planted in the garden") out where everyone can see it. Placing it 2-5 when it is a single bird always brings the exhibitor to the judge. lol.

Walt

 

[berkeleysprings]

i know and realize all that , thats why i said judge shoul leave the ribons at home even the worst birds with a boat load of faults can still be called a marans and only be ten points , but should never be shown in the ring ,,, if a point scale is used that is one to one hundred
a bad bird scoreing only 10 points is still a marans ,,,, am i wrong ?

Quote:

 

[Debbi]

Quote:
Hi Walt,
Great comments.
I didn't realize poultry judges had the ability to not award first, second or third places. Is that the case in all shows?
Joe

Judges NEVER have to give a bird a placement.....any placement, if the bird is not worthy. They can put 1-10th place on a single bird if they want to..or just writing something else on the card....like.. Not Worthy of placement. This can embarrass a person though. Many judges just put a first place and keep on going without thinking of the consequences. For me it is easier to deal with a marginal bird in the beginning. How many times have we read on BYC " I had Champion" and you look at the bird and think " How did that happen"? All they hear or see is: Champion or first place etc". The new exhibitor does not know that the bird is really not very good. It is the judges responsiblilty to let an exhibitor know when they are showing a marginal bird. We do that by DQing it or if it is close enough, by making comments so that the exhibitor is not mislead about the real quality of the bird. I am humane in my comments and sometimes just put "see the judge". That saves the embarrassment of putting ("this bird should be planted in the garden") out where everyone can see it. Placing it 2-5 when it is a single bird always brings the exhibitor to the judge. lol.

Walt

KUDOS WALT!!! That's the way it should be all around! If I were to show, I would hope I would be judged by someone with your mindset. The comments on the card should be welcomed to help the exhibitor to strengthen the weaknesses of their breeding program. I really like your use of tact, when it comes to writing a too harsh comment! "See the Judge" is an outstanding way of doing the deed as tactfully as possible, and I would surely hope that the exhibitors would appreciate you taking the time. I've been noticing quite a few auctions for "Show Quality eggs", (eggs, really??), or BOB at the Podunk show. Pretty ribbons in the pics, and at best, some mediocre bird with a squirrel tail. BOB/BV??? I always want to ask them how many birds of that breed where actually in the competition. Thanks for the input, Walt. So glad you posted this!

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Judges NEVER have to give a bird a placement.....any placement, if the bird is not worthy. They can put 1-10th place on a single bird if they want to..or just writing something else on the card....like.. Not Worthy of placement. This can embarrass a person though. Many judges just put a first place and keep on going without thinking of the consequences. For me it is easier to deal with a marginal bird in the beginning. How many times have we read on BYC " I had Champion" and you look at the bird and think " How did that happen"? All they hear or see is: Champion or first place etc". The new exhibitor does not know that the bird is really not very good. It is the judges responsiblilty to let an exhibitor know when they are showing a marginal bird. We do that by DQing it or if it is close enough, by making comments so that the exhibitor is not mislead about the real quality of the bird. I am humane in my comments and sometimes just put "see the judge". That saves the embarrassment of putting ("this bird should be planted in the garden") out where everyone can see it. Placing it 2-5 when it is a single bird always brings the exhibitor to the judge. lol.

Walt

KUDOS WALT!!! That's the way it should be all around! If I were to show, I would hope I would be judged by someone with your mindset. The comments on the card should be welcomed to help the exhibitor to strengthen the weaknesses of their breeding program. I really like your use of tact, when it comes to writing a too harsh comment! "See the Judge" is an outstanding way of doing the deed as tactfully as possible, and I would surely hope that the exhibitors would appreciate you taking the time. I've been noticing quite a few auctions for "Show Quality eggs", (eggs, really??), or BOB at the Podunk show. Pretty ribbons in the pics, and at best, some mediocre bird with a squirrel tail. BOB/BV??? I always want to ask them how many birds of that breed where actually in the competition. Thanks for the input, Walt. So glad you posted this!

If someone is bragging they better be prepared for questions about how many are in a class. Ribbons don't mean much to me. I just look them up in the APA yearbook to see if they have won anything significant and that tells you how many birds were in the class. If they won BB at some little fair, it will not be listed.

Walt

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
KUDOS WALT!!! That's the way it should be all around! If I were to show, I would hope I would be judged by someone with your mindset. The comments on the card should be welcomed to help the exhibitor to strengthen the weaknesses of their breeding program. I really like your use of tact, when it comes to writing a too harsh comment! "See the Judge" is an outstanding way of doing the deed as tactfully as possible, and I would surely hope that the exhibitors would appreciate you taking the time. I've been noticing quite a few auctions for "Show Quality eggs", (eggs, really??), or BOB at the Podunk show. Pretty ribbons in the pics, and at best, some mediocre bird with a squirrel tail. BOB/BV??? I always want to ask them how many birds of that breed where actually in the competition. Thanks for the input, Walt. So glad you posted this!

If someone is bragging they better be prepared for questions about how many are in a class. Ribbons don't mean much to me. I just look them up in the APA yearbook to see if they have won anything significant and that tells you how many birds were in the class. If they won BB at some little fair, it will not be listed.

Walt

Walt, if the person winning is not a member of APA the winnings will not show up in the yearbook.