when does the breed become YOUR line?

[rtroxel]

When I brought different lines together, they had slightly different colors. I still refer to the originals even though I've brought three lines together. They are all mixed up, but I still can see the different traits coming through. It is my line, my strain, my whatever, but I won't consider it completely mine until I get the uniformity I want for type, color, size, growth rate, etc. Even when that happens, people will still ask where the parent stock came from, even though it doesn't matter any more after 7 years. I will tell them and if it matters to them, I guess that is great.

As dutchhollow said, it only really matters when your line becomes well known enough for people to stop asking. Then it will be mine and people will say: I've got Triangle Acres line of this or that.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Line and strain are two different things if I'm correct. It seems like you're saying that a line is longterm, and a strain is just a few matings bred, then they become yours? I thought it was the other way around, which was stated earlier. I think that if you hatch from those birds and breed that offspring it is your LINE, and it takes more years for it to become your STRAIN.

Of course, this discussion is full of different opinions. When I mentioned EB Thompson I was referring to strain.

You are correct, Nick.

I disagree with this also. When you buy fowl and breed them however you would like they are no longer Joe Blow's strain or Line. There has been too much name dropping for the past sixty years I have had show fowl.

 

[PepsNick]

Quote:
You are correct, Nick.

I disagree with this also. When you buy fowl and breed them however you would like they are no longer Joe Blow's strain or Line. There has been too much name dropping for the past sixty years I have had show fowl.

Well, I agree with that in line but not strain. We all have our opinions, that is yours, mine is mine.

 

[dinahmoe]

ok,now i am confused about which is the line and which is the strain.i have 2 lines(strain?)A&B.
A is kept pure and the B pen is a mix of the A&B.i guess when i start winning all the shows i attend with the B pen,then i can call them mine.lol
i am not trying to be known all over as "the master breeder" of whatever,just want to sell good birds that i have worked with and tried to improve or at least maintain.
there seems to be alot of opinions on the time frame.very interesting reading.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
Strain -
A group of birds within a variety that has been bred by one person or firm for some time and has more or less uniform characteristics and capabilities.

ESTABLISHING A STRAIN. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes

1919
Strain is another word for pedigree and if we start with two
unrelated birds, build them up for successive generations so as to
throw the points we desire, we have established a strain. In
starting line-breeding we can commence with several hens or pullets
as one of the units, but all should be related (sisters) and of the
same breeding. It is best to get unrelated stock as the foundation
i.e., buy the male from one source and the female or females from
a different breeder. We must select these original units for " like
begets like " and as we go on each year certain points must be bred
for and perfected. Unlike cannot beget like, for how could a
White Dotte mated to a White Leghorn breed pure White
Wyandottes ? My readers must not suppose that line-breeding
solves the breeding-of-winners problem. By taking two medium
quality White Wyandottes and line-breeding without selection of
type, color, etc., we shall be no nearer our goal in ten years' time.
Line-breeding preserves the qualities in a strain ; if we start with
tip-top birds we shall soon breed tip-top birds, if with inferior stock
those that are inferior. Start with high-class original parents
and select rigorously each mating for type, color, etc. One thing
can be said of such a system of line-breeding, and that is, that when
a winner is once bred, it is bred, and other winners will follow.

Chris

 

[MobyQuail]

bear with me, gonna kill this thread or try to help make the point from a different lower angle. I really dont want to kill the thread or come off ahead of my knowledge and experience.


I have Mutt EEs I have been hatching, but to me they are what we want on the farm right now, Big Blue Muffed Dark legged EEs.

I raised a Splash Ameraucana Roo from Yvonne's bittie pen in live oak, she got her stock from eggs from Pips&Peeps. These are great lines for Ameraucanas, but definitely not saying mine is the best.

I have a Blue Rock Hen directly from HALO, she is beautiful, but she was too light/pale for Halo's breeder pen. She is a wonderful, full bodied hen. (to my eye) and uhm hello, she is a HALO bird, need I say more?


So, I have hatched two hatches this spring of these EE birds, and I know they are going to be either blue or splash.

I kept 3 from the first hatch, 1 blue male with dark legs, 1 light blue female with dark legs and a splash female.

I kept 1 splash female from the second hatch.

All the birds I kept have the same body type and the same colors. and they are built in type like the mom hen.


I know they are mongrels now, but this is how they start breeds though isnt it?


So, I intend to place the original mother hen, in a pen with all the offspring, and let the young blue roo grow up to lead the pen.

if I hatch out eggs from this pen (and they are not crossbeaks), are they "insert name here's" Blue EEs? again, not getting ahead of my experience or knowledge here, grandma rita has ~60 years with yard chickens, and these birds are on her farm.


this EE example makes it easier for me to understand, and I know there is a RUTH on here known for her Olive Eggers,

with purebreds I can't wrap my head around it yet and it probably relates to wanting to give credit where credit is due to the breed originator and include the buzz words/names for your specific breed.
kinda like what I did above.

btw, you also see this with pitbull breeders alot...maybe all breeders in general. but we all start hatching that first egg ya know...

 

[WallTenters]

My understanding is that a LINE is a bloodline - meaning that you know the line of a breeding pen or even down to a specific cock and hen. One example would be if we bred a line from a specific cockerel on several hens. If we bred back those pullets to the sire, that would be breeding true to the line. Then if we crossed those chicks on other birds still out of the same sire, it would still be line breeding. Usually this is not done to one specific bird in poultry, but rather to a family of birds (so we'd have three brother cockerels on a pen of hens, etc.)

A STRAIN is a family of lines that is bred with the same characteristics in mind and yields consistent results. If you have two lines that you breed side by side and cross into each other, you'll be working on both lines and strains.

Tracing a LINE can take much more work than tracing a strain. BUILDING a STRAIN takes much more work than building a line. A strain can be developed with a larger number of birds, and the birds could be originally unrelated. The end result is that you do a lot of culling to get the consistency you want. Then it is your strain.

To say a line came from a breeder is saying that the bloodlines of your bird trace back to that breeder's roosters or hens - even if the characteristics of the birds are not the same, as that breeder may have chosen to breed that line to another line to make it better, meanwhile you kept the line true and now have junk. To say you have their strain is to say that your birds were bred from their stock and continue to breed true to the characteristics you want.

So I think only the first generation or two can you say you have a breeder's strain. BUT just because you can trace a bloodline back to the breeder, that doesn't mean diddly as you haven't kept up the quality, or you've selected for different strains, etc.

I do think it's important to know the history of the birds. We always ask where our birds' parent stock bloodlines/strains were from because we try to get a better understanding of the genetic recessive faults that are in certain strains heavier than others. Also, if we know that birds with Mr Doe's breeding had great eggs, even if that has not been kept up, it is possible the genes are still there but just not being bred properly.


... Perhaps horse people can relate to this...

Egyptian is a strain of Arabian, while Thee Desperado (an Egyptian Arabian stallion) has become his own line of Arabian. There are enough females with him on their charts bred to males with him on the chart to say those foals are line bred. Horses of that line will usually have certain characteristics that Thee Desperado carried.

Egyptians tend to be typey with large eyes, small ears, and rather short in stature. Thee Desperado horses have that as well as lots of bays and blacks (as he himself is a bay) and with a little longer ears than many older lined Egyptians. They win! They excel in pleasure and sport classes.

So even though Thee Desperado is an Egyptian, we can see some obvious differences between his line and the lines of other stallions (maybe that don't have enough bone to complete a jumper course to save their life, while Desperado has offspring excelling in that sport).

Sorry. It's late now and I'll stop trying to explain myself- I think I'm just muddling it all up even more!

 

[Pathfinders]

Within the Buckeye world we had a long discussion on this topic last year. I asked Jeannette to address the topic, and here's what the ALBC has to say on the difference between Lines and Strains:

Defining Bloodlines and Strains Within Breeds

D. P. Sponenberg, J. Beranger, M. Bender

ALBC members frequently ask “what is a “bloodline?” or “what is a strain?” These terms are tricky to define, are often misunderstood, and many breeders struggle to understand exactly what these mean. Breaking down the basics can shed light on the concepts involved, and the definition of these often synonymous terms.

At the easiest level, a "bloodline" or "strain" is a group of animals within a breed that are themselves somewhat distinctive compared to other individuals of the same breed. This distinctiveness is usually both by physical type as well as by bloodline or pedigree. In this sense, a bloodline or strain is basically a "sub-branch" of the main "branch" that is the breed. The breed is a branch off of the main species trunk. The branching pattern goes species – breed group – breed – strain/bloodline. An example might be:

Cattle – Humpless cattle – Criollo breed group – Pineywoods breed – Conway strain

There are many examples in numerous breeds.

It is easiest to appreciate and define a bloodline/strain by looking retrospectively. A strain is different from the main breed by some amount of isolated breeding, and usually (by implication) a distinct foundation event. For example, a producer acquires goats from two herds from Texas. Both herds had been closed for the previous 30 years with no outside animals coming into either herd. The result is that they were both distinct from each other by appearance, foundation events, and from the genetic results of the selection imposed on the herds by the individual owners. These two herds would easily be considered to be separate strains within the breed. This is the "easy" definition, but really only applies when looking backward.

Looking prospectively to the future, the concept of "What does it take to make a strain?" gets tougher. Basically, the same components of reasonably unique foundation, genetic isolation, and owner selection come into play.

Here are a few examples to consider:

• If a successful rabbit breeder has a herd that has no outside introductions for 10 years or so, then clearly it is a strain. (So far, so good.) However, if two breeders get trios or quads out of this herd, and then breed them in isolation for five years each, are these then independent strains? Likely not because the animals are still closely related by pedigree. The exceptional case may be if selection for type were wildly different in each situation, then they could possibly be considered at least “sub-strains.” In most cases, though, it makes sense to consider genetically pure offshoots of strains as members of the original strain.

• A producer has a long-term breeding program for rabbits, but brings in a new buck every two years from widely varying source herds. In this situation the herd never gains the genetic uniformity to really become its own "strain." The snag here is the lack of isolation, which does not detract from the quality of the animals, but does make them more genetically variable than the concept used here for “strain.”

• In contrast, if a producer bought four rabbits from each of four different herds, mated them, and then closed the herdi for 5 or so years, then it is legitimate to call the group a strain. The unique combination of foundation, isolation, and selection is all in place in this example.

The problem of defining a “strain” is very similar to the problem of defining a "breed." Deciding exactly where to cut either one off is often perplexing. "We know it when we see it" rarely cuts the mustard, but is unfortunately close to the truth! But, saying that strains have at least four generations of closed breeding with no outside introductions is a start and will stand up to scrutiny in most cases.

It must be added, though, that outside breeding IS occasionally allowed, and even necessary, or strains become genetic dead-ends. The key issue is what happens after the outcross. The results of the outcross should be mated back into the strain, in what is essentially an "upgrading" process. This needs to result in at least 75% (or, better, 87.5%) the influence of the original strain in order to be considered part of that original strain. This requires two or three crosses back to the strain.

There is no exact science in determining if and when a population has become a strain or bloodline. This designation cannot be judged simply by the years of isolation the population has endured, because the isolation and foundation are also important. It is through the combination of uniformity in genetics, appearance, production traits, as well as isolation that a strain can be identified as a clear sub-population within a breed.

An important issue in any discussion of strains and bloodlines is “why are bloodlines and strains important?” The bloodlines within a breed can be very important reservoirs of genetic variation, and managing these within the overall breed is important for long-term breed survivali. When some strains gain significant popularity and overwhelm the presence of other strains in the breed by marginalizing them or driving them to extinction, the result is decreased genetic health for the breed as a whole. Understanding the role of strains in maintaining genetic health for a breed is essential for all serious breeders.

For more information on this topic, see Chapter 4: Maintaining Breeds in Managing Breeds for a Secure Future: Strategies for Breeders and Breed Associations by D. Phillip Sponenberg and D. E. Bixby. American Livestock Breeds Conservancy, 2007.

 

[Pathfinders]

And my own thoughts on this are this: if you purchase excellent breeding birds from a breeder and create offspring from them, you cannot call the results your own "strain." However, the offspring are indeed your birds, as the original breeder had no control over how you set up the breeding pens or how/if you culled appropriately.

Personally, I feel it's doing a breeder an injustice to take credit for their hard work and call the birds mine. What I do say is, the birds came from X breeder, and I've been working with them for X amount of time.

For example, I've been breeding Buckeyes for five years now. I tell folks I am working with Brown, ALBC, and Urch lines. I would never have the hubris to consider these birds my own strain yet, especially since I just added a bunch more Urch last year and this.

After I've closed my flock for at least five more years and culled according to the SOP, I then might consider calling the results my own strain. But really, I don't worry about it too much (as some other folks do), as I just don't get off on that sort of self-promotion. I just try to do a good job with the birds.

 

[dinahmoe]

thanks guys for the line/strain help.very helpful when explained in simple form.lol