Which breeds are eWh Wheaten? (BC Marans related.)

[Henk69]

If new hampshire have Db (again) you could get blacktail roosters anyway.
I would testmate with pure wheatens without columbian-like restrictor, so no buff, no new hampshire or RIR.

 

[Sparklee]

Quote:
Okay.

But what breed would that be? Is the columbian-like restrictor that shawl-like batch of feathers around the females necks?

I am really new at chickens and don't understand very much at all, but am trying to learn. So, if you could explain what you mean exactly in detail, that would be very helpful. The book I bought on breeding is way over my head and I can't afford another right now and the next book might be just as confusing as the first.

I don't understand the significance of "If new hampshire have Db (again) you could get blacktail roosters anyway."

I'm trying to figure out if my Black Copper Marans is carry a Wheaten gene and want to do test matings for the newbie.

 

[blackdotte]

What you are trying to find out is if your Black Coppers are carrying recessive Wheaten, or are just lacking melanisers.

If you test mate, (on a one to one basis) using a BC Marans and a New Hampshire you will get the following results

If carrying Wheaten, approx half the chicks will be creamy white & half black. BUT even if you only get 1 creamy white chick it proves the presence of the Wheaten gene in both parents, OR

If your BCs are lacking sufficient Melanisers, all chicks will be black,which is the correct Birchen allele for a Black Copper.

What genetics book did you buy?
David

 

[pocopoyo]

Why not use wheaton Marans for your test cross?
You can still identify which of your Black Coppers carry Wheaton and all of the offspring would be pure Marans. I am sure you can find someone who is working on wheaton Marams to take your wheatons offspring. If you use another breed for your test mating, all of the offspring will be wasters.

POCO

 

[blackdotte]

You can still identify ........ and all of the offspring would be pure Marans.

No they won't ,they will be Black Copper X Wheaten , and will just continue the problem. The two varieties have different genotypes,
BCs are Melanised Mahogany Birchins & Wheatens are gold Wheatens. This is one of the reasons there are so many problems with BCs in the US.
David​

 

[Sparklee]

Quote:
Wasters? Wasters!? Oh, that sounds harsh. Is that a common term that breeders use? They wouldn't be wasters; we would find a use for them. It's not like I have to hatch out very many to perform the tests.

Besides, I don't want to ever have any Wheaten Marans blood in my Black Copper Marans. I want pure BCMs and I want to know, without one iota of doubt, that none of their offspring were accidentally crossbred with a rogue Wheaten that escaped a pen or that one of my BCM hens got in the pen with the Wheaten cock.

Quote:
I don't see how I'd be able to identify which of the Black Coppers that would be carrying Wheaten. You might be able to, but I can't tell with these ones I have right now. One cock's chest is pure red from the top to all the way down underneath, though his wings look correct so far.

In the end, to me, they aren't Black Coppers if they carry Wheaten. I would think of ER/eWh as "wasters" because I couldn't keep them around for fear that I'd get them confused with my ER/ER birds.

I'm not a breeder and am pretty ignorant about all of this, but if Black Coppers aren't ER/ER, then they're not Black Coppers in my estimation. If I bred my Black Copper Marans in test matings with Wheaten Marans, why wouldn't they just be "mutt" Marans? Yeah, using Wheaten Marans for the tests would just confuse me further. Clearly.

 

[Henk69]

Quote:
No they won't ,they will be Black Copper X Wheaten , and will just continue the problem. The two varieties have different genotypes,
BCs are Melanised Mahogany Birchins & Wheatens are gold Wheatens. This is one of the reasons there are so many problems with BCs in the US.
David

Sparklee,
I understand you already have wheaten marans? Problem solved!
If you want to know if the wheaten is in the black coppers.
They have no columbian-like restrictors like the Db-factor.
The main effect in the columbian pattern is that the males have groundcolor breast (gold or red or silver), not black. The hackle trim is not due to columbian-like genes, and must be enhanced by other factors to be decent (hackle black).

David,
Testmatings are producing wasters by definition, you must know that...

The only purpose is finding out the genotype of the testmated animal.
But the wasters should be sold as such, that is true.

 

[Krys109uk]

The way I read it Sparklee does not have any pure wheaten Marans & does not want any. She has ER/eWh in her copper black birds & wants only ER/ER birds. She also has New Hampshires & wants to use them for test matings.

It seems to me that David's suggestion makes sense.

David wrote: If you test mate, (on a one to one basis) using a BC Marans and a New Hampshire you will get the following results

If carrying Wheaten, approx half the chicks will be creamy white & half black. BUT even if you only get 1 creamy white chick it proves the presence of the Wheaten gene in both parents,​

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
If carrying wheaten and lacking melanizers, what are the results?

It seems like if you ever get a wheaten chick from the BC marans, then you know your cock carries e^Wh.

Would it really matter if the wasters were E^R/e^Wh marans vs. maransXNew Hampshire? Seems like someone who just wants dark eggs or to begin with marans would be interested in the mixed-E marans more so than a crossbreed.

I'll put in a plug for David's book--EXCELLENT! detailed information that is very easy to understand. www.chickencolours.com

 

[Sparklee]

I appreciate your response, blackdotte. I don't understand what others have said about the tail being black because of columbian (which is what the New Hampshire Reds have) being a problem. So, the New Hampshire Reds will likely be my test birds. And we'll be happy to have a few extra mixes of them around.

Quote:
I bought 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Brereton. I shouldn't have said it was over my head because I gave it a quick perusal just now and it was okay. I had to work a bit to understand it, but it assumed I had more knowledge about breeding than I have. The big thing, to me, was that it was full of Wyandotte information. It seemed like the author was a Wyandotte breeder. If I had Wyandottes, that would be great. But I just wanted to learn more about other stuff, so I felt a lot of the information didn't apply to me.

Here's an example. The chapter on "Columbian and Hackle Back" starts out like this: "Adding the Columbian gene to an Exhibition male line of Partridge Wyandottes (pics A & B) produces the 'Buff-Columbian' effect (pics C & D)."

At the time I read that I didn't know what Columbian was. Why wouldn't a chapter on Columbian at least explain what Columbian is right at the beginning of the chapter? And why does it launch directly into Wyandottes? And I couldn't tell you what hackle back is either.

Okay, so my analysis of this book is flawed because I'm not a breeder. It's probably a great book, but I can't tell because of lack of knowledge and experience with genetics. The book had a good review or two somewhere or I wouldn't have bought it.

I think any chicken genetics book needs a list like this one: http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html
which I just found yesterday. The book mentioned above doesn't have any appendix explaining the genetics letter codes. That is frustrating.

When trying to figure out which book to buy, I looked at Genetics of Chicken Colours: The Basics at
http://www.scnaonline.org/color_genetics_book.php
But it's $100. I'm tempted, and if I had any plans or desires to be a breeder, I'd likely be buying it.