White Cornish: Building a Quality, Sustainable Flock for Meat and More.....

[Lauravonsmurf]

There are variables on top of the basic genectis, how an animal splits its DNA, research in various species has discovered some animals will pass on certain genes at a higher rate, more likely to produce males or females as an example but might always pass a recessive trait when they posses a dominate gene as well for example, the mantra for years was if you could breed enough offspring of that couple the math would hold out as predicted but that is not always true is what has been discovered. There is all sorts of research out there that goes beyond the math. Genes and their inheritance to the next generation are way complicated sometimes than the square suggests.

However I have come to think of an individuals DNA as something akin to a rubric cube in which you can not see all the colour cubes and if you are breeding you are trying to unscramble that cube half blind... .

 

[Fat Daddy]

Yes but not really unless we are talking over a very long period of time. The Punnet square addresses the probability of what each independent fertilization event could produce. Breeding split with split there is a 25% probability it could be LL, 50% probability Ll and 25% ll. The probabilities from the Punnet square can really only be applied when a large number of fertilization events occur simultaneously from one coupling. Each egg in a clutch has only a 1 in 4 chances of being white. There is no statistical relationship between each egg.

Agreed.... Just like the likely pullet to cockerel ratio would be 50/50. But we have all had those large swings either way in individual hatches. But in large enough samplings it's always gonna be close to 50%...
Add in the fact that a "pure" bird is hypothetical at best, well it's easy to see how the square is flawed before the first mating. But it works to a extent and is the best way I know of explaining the probability of Matt getting white birds from his flock. I have worked the squares on lavender Orpingtons and the ratios came out pretty close. Also tried it with coturnix quail and white chukar. The ratios came out with in reason even with the muddy coturnix.

 

[JRNash]

We struggle to explain that which we don't understand. In my case anyway.
Trying to follow the squares always makes my eyelid start to twitch.

 

[JRNash]

I breed a white to a white and end up with a Dalmatian.

 

[Fat Daddy]

Yeah I smell what you're step'n in man.... This is in the deeper end of a pool I ain't really qualified to wade around in... but I have made a couple good friends thru the years that explained it to me like they were talk'n to child. I kinda understand the jest of it all. If you're familiar with Tatanka meat bird thread in the quail section, Moby is one of the sharpest guys you'll meet in this area.... syphers all this out for fun.... hell, I just went to school because there were girls there. but I listen when the big boys talk....

 

[Fairview01]

Well I have a question. Why introduce an undesirable gene into the population, especially a dominant one that masks the recessive white gene. I could see if the genes were shared dominant or recessive since the phenotype expression would identify the animal was a split.

Just curious.

 

[JRNash]

X2 FD

 

[KoopOnTruckin]

Hey Fairview, my thought in adding the DC to the White Cornish bloodline would be in an attempt to add a third bloodline (still Cornish, though a distant cousin to the White) to limit inbreeding. I purchased eggs from FD, but only 3 total made it and they are from 2 of his 3 pens in his spiral breeding program. So I'm stuck inbreeding after only one generation, which means the need for 2 more bloodlines in the future. Or I could add the Dark Cornish to the mix to complete 3 pens for my own spiral breeding program. That at least gives me some time to see if I can force out the Dark.

Remember too that I'm not looking for show quality, just quality meat bird stock that will fill my freezer without too much cost. I prefer to keep as close to the White Cornish standard as possible out of sheer respect for the breed, but if that means direct and continuous inbreeding after just the first generation, it's not worth it (IMO).

 

[Fairview01]

Sending you a pm.

Hey Fairview, my thought in adding the DC to the White Cornish bloodline would be in an attempt to add a third bloodline (still Cornish, though a distant cousin to the White) to limit inbreeding. I purchased eggs from FD, but only 3 total made it and they are from 2 of his 3 pens in his spiral breeding program. So I'm stuck inbreeding after only one generation, which means the need for 2 more bloodlines in the future. Or I could add the Dark Cornish to the mix to complete 3 pens for my own spiral breeding program. That at least gives me some time to see if I can force out the Dark.

Remember too that I'm not looking for show quality, just quality meat bird stock that will fill my freezer without too much cost. I prefer to keep as close to the White Cornish standard as possible out of sheer respect for the breed, but if that means direct and continuous inbreeding after just the first generation, it's not worth it (IMO).

 

[Fat Daddy]

I wouldn't add dark Cornish into my whites. But Matt has different goals than I. The white gene, both dominate and recessive, will be covered the first year no matter what. So it will be a several generation deal to get them breeding 100% white again. Again, from here it gets a bit above my pay grade. But I do have several years of experience to fall back on. I'm gonna guess they will likely be dominate white gene birds that cover red. The recessive whites tend to cover black. I'm pretty confident in this because when you find pet quality white Cornish, about 25% of the cockerels will show a rusty red "bleed", usually on their shoulders, just as they get their last molt. But sometimes presents as a rusty freckle as they feather out. For some reason the pullets never the last molt bleed... If the breeder knows the lineage. And is honest about it. It almost always turns out that there is dark Cornish or WLR in the recent back ground of the birds. My first whites, as well as some purchased eggs had exactly this heritage. This is why I culled the entire "pen C" the first year of this thread. The pix below are several years old and is how the domainate white gene birds, from a recent dark Cornish cross will feather as chicks. They hatch with yellow or brown down, and domainate white covers red, so they show the rusty bleed as they feather out. This fades with every molt.

By the time they get their final molt, they will be a pure white bird. But once and a while a recessive will hatch showing silver down, and show a black bleed as they feather out. Recessive covers black... This too fades with every molt till the chick is pure white by 12-14 weeks old.... these chicks were color culls and sent to my meat pen a couple years ago. But they hatched with the silver/gray down of recessive white gene birds. I keep lots of pix and record a lot of useless data, but it keeps me outta the bar.....