Why do people choose to be vegans?

[Rosa moschata]

I agree that when you purchase meat from the people who raise the meat you will appreciate it more.

"Humans evolved as omnivores, but with not nearly the degree of carnivory found in the typical modern American diet."

I am not an anthropologist, but I have watched educational programs on TV. I learned that it was eating meat that allowed our ancestors to have the calories and protein needed to grow a larger brain. Neanderthals ate a diet that was something like 90% meat. Just recently DNA testing has shown that most people have about 3% Neanderthal DNA. Cro Magnons, basically modern humans, had a more varied diet that included more fruits and vegetables, but it was still largely a meat diet. It is interesting that Neanderthals did not eat fish but Cro Magnons did. A more varied diet makes a person more flexible and more likely to survive.

That being said, most modern humans aren't running around trying to kill their dinner. I mean most modern humans are not burning as many calories. I just saw an article that said that even housewives a few decades ago burned more calories than housewives today. Crank washing machine? Pre-prepared food?

People today can survive eating fruits, vegetables, and nuts. But I don't want to live that way. Give me a cheeseburger.

The percentage of meat in the diet varied with the season, but current traditional hunter-gatherer societies derive about 60% of their calories from "gathering" as opposed to "hunting." And remember that meat is a higher-calorie food than most plant foods, so by volume, the meat component isn't huge. In a modern diet, you could get similar numbers from having a few strips of bacon with breakfast, and being vegan the rest of the day -- when I say "small amounts of meat" I meant per total food volume. Typical American meals today have a meat-centered plate with every meal -- that's way more than necessary, and very environmentally expensive to produce for everyone.

Yes, meat-eating was a component in our evolution which allowed for our brains to develop to the extent which they have -- and I actually wrote a paper for one of my physical anthropology classes on the topic of diet interacting with human evolution. The estimate you're quoting is based on interpreting nitrogen compounds remaining in the bones, and extrapolating that to determine diet. Previous estimates assumed a very high percentage of animal protein, but more recent and more finely-tuned examinations bring the number lower (around 40-60% of calories derived from animal sources, depending on the season in climates with Winter...I'd have to go back and re-read them to be more specific). Neanderthal, living much of the time in a Winter-heavy climate, had to rely much more on hunting than did our ancestors living where plants could be gathered year-round.

And yes, about 3% of the DNA found in people of European descent contains Neanderthal DNA. Then there's also the enigmatic Denisovans, who we've just learned have also contributed to the modern human gene pool. Human evolution is truly fascinating.

 

[rufus]

I am afraid there is a tendency to yearn for a romantic past that really wasn't that romantic. Industrial farming has provided a bounty that was never seen before. Famine used to occur regularly. Now, with the exception of North Korea, people don't starve to death. Other nations help those in need.

The jury is still out on genetically modified crops. Hopefully, they will be a boon rather than a curse. Time will tell.

The idea of returning to the village economy stinks. When it takes a shoe maker a week to make a pair of shoes, then the shoes are too expensive for anyone in the village. How long does it take to make a shirt or pair of pants? My mother used to make our clothes. It took her forever.

Cheap clothing is now available due to industrial production and mass marketing. Our lifestyles have been so enriched by the actions of the corporations. Yes, the hated corporations.

When I hear people use the term "corporate greed," I know they never lived in an impoverished village.

 

[Bullitt]

The percentage of meat in the diet varied with the season, but current traditional hunter-gatherer societies derive about 60% of their calories from "gathering" as opposed to "hunting." And remember that meat is a higher-calorie food than most plant foods, so by volume, the meat component isn't huge. In a modern diet, you could get similar numbers from having a few strips of bacon with breakfast, and being vegan the rest of the day -- when I say "small amounts of meat" I meant per total food volume. Typical American meals today have a meat-centered plate with every meal -- that's way more than necessary, and very environmentally expensive to produce for everyone.

Yes, meat-eating was a component in our evolution which allowed for our brains to develop to the extent which they have -- and I actually wrote a paper for one of my physical anthropology classes on the topic of diet interacting with human evolution. The estimate you're quoting is based on interpreting nitrogen compounds remaining in the bones, and extrapolating that to determine diet. Previous estimates assumed a very high percentage of animal protein, but more recent and more finely-tuned examinations bring the number lower (around 40-60% of calories derived from animal sources, depending on the season in climates with Winter...I'd have to go back and re-read them to be more specific). Neanderthal, living much of the time in a Winter-heavy climate, had to rely much more on hunting than did our ancestors living where plants could be gathered year-round.

And yes, about 3% of the DNA found in people of European descent contains Neanderthal DNA. Then there's also the enigmatic Denisovans, who we've just learned have also contributed to the modern human gene pool. Human evolution is truly fascinating.

40% of calories from meat for modern hunter-gatherers, and 40% to 60% calories from meat for Cro Magnon, I guess you mean. By the way, Neanderthal and Cro Magnon at times lived in the same areas at the same time. Cro Magnon ate less meat while living in that cold climate, as far as I know. It is interesting that adult Neanderthals consumed about 5,000 calories a day and had a fast metabolism to keep warm. Bad news when food is in short supply.

But what are you arguing here? You seem to be saying that people have always gotten about half their calories from meat.

OK. People have always eaten meat. We agree.

We can also agree that modern humans do not need as many calories as people running around doing all that hunting and gathering. So modern humans don't need to eat as much meat.

But I would still argue that the protein and iron from meat is still good for people, especially for growing children.

It would be interesting to see people who were raised without any animal products. What would they look like?

 

[Bullitt]

I am afraid there is a tendency to yearn for a romantic past that really wasn't that romantic. Industrial farming has provided a bounty that was never seen before. Famine used to occur regularly. Now, with the exception of North Korea, people don't starve to death. Other nations help those in need.

The jury is still out on genetically modified crops. Hopefully, they will be a boon rather than a curse. Time will tell.

The idea of returning to the village economy stinks. When it takes a shoe maker a week to make a pair of shoes, then the shoes are too expensive for anyone in the village. How long does it take to make a shirt or pair of pants? My mother used to make our clothes. It took her forever.

Cheap clothing is now available due to industrial production and mass marketing. Our lifestyles have been so enriched by the actions of the corporations. Yes, the hated corporations.

When I hear people use the term "corporate greed," I know they never lived in an impoverished village.

Did I miss something? Who is arguing for a return to a "village economy"?

 

[Rosa moschata]

Yes, far more of a "bounty" than is necessary, considering how much is actually destroyed, and how so much cheap food has changed what the average American looks like. Additionally, as soil is depleted from successive monoculture crops grown with synthetic fertilizers, nutrient levels (vitamins and minerals) in today's food is less than measured several decades back -- so today we have more food, but of lower food value.

Famine is not caused by insufficient food production -- we already have more than enough to feed everyone in the world. Famine is the result of preventing access to food. And I think quite a few people in Somalia today would argue your contention that there is no famine today, thanks to all the modern industrial agriculture here in the US.

The jury is not out "still out" on GMOs -- their yields are no better, their cultivation goes hand-in-hand with additional expensive pesticides, and the seeds themselves cost more than non-GMOs -- they will be of no help to anyone who isn't already set-up for industrial agriculture in a wealthy nation.

Cheap clothing is now available due to industrial production and the availability of impoverished villages -- both for concentrations of unskilled and uneducated workers, and as dumping grounds for the associated industrial waste -- the fashion industry is a huge polluter.

Small-scale local food production allows for more efficient use of resources and associated waste.

Having anything you want available cheap may be great for you, but it has costs paid elsewhere. Very little comes free or cheap unless someone is getting robbed or swindled. That you aren't paying the costs directly yourself does not mean the costs go unpaid.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Did I miss something? Who is arguing for a return to a "village economy"?

He likes to stir things up...I think there's a word for that on internet forums.

:-/

 

[Rosa moschata]

40% of calories from meat for modern hunter-gatherers, and 40% to 60% calories from meat for Cro Magnon, I guess you mean. By the way, Neanderthal and Cro Magnon at times lived in the same areas at the same time. Cro Magnon ate less meat while living in that cold climate, as far as I know. It is interesting that adult Neanderthals consumed about 5,000 calories a day and had a fast metabolism to keep warm. Bad news when food is in short supply.

But what are you arguing here? You seem to be saying that people have always gotten about half their calories from meat.

OK. People have always eaten meat. We agree.

We can also agree that modern humans do not need as many calories as people running around doing all that hunting and gathering. So modern humans don't need to eat as much meat.

But I would still argue that the protein and iron from meat is still good for people, especially for growing children.

It would be interesting to see people who were raised without any animal products. What would they look like?

Yes, I am not saying that people shouldn't eat meat. I'm saying that we eat more than we need to, lured into that by the prevalence of cheap meat that is actually not as good for us -- as food, or the environmental results of its concentrated production. I'm saying that if you (assuming you have an average American diet) spent the same money you spend now on cheap meat, but instead spent it on a lesser amount of farm-to-fork type meat, you'd end up with about the healthy recommended amount in your diet -- and you'll find greater enjoyment from it. Rather than have McDonald's three times a week, spend the same on one quality meat meal. A hamburger is great, if made with great beef. But I'd rather "save up" for making myself an awesome dish of osso bucco made from rose veal. Beyond the environmental and health benefits, it's a philosophical thing for me -- I'm the type who'd rather have nice things infrequently than crappy things whenever I want, and still spend the same money.

People raised as vegans? I know a few. If you were hanging out with them outside of mealtimes, you wouldn't know -- at least, not among the friends I know. There are sickly people in either camp, just as there are normal and "wow, you're in great shape!" people as well.

 

[Bullitt]

Yes, I am not saying that people shouldn't eat meat. I'm saying that we eat more than we need to, lured into that by the prevalence of cheap meat that is actually not as good for us -- as food, or the environmental results of its concentrated production. I'm saying that if you (assuming you have an average American diet) spent the same money you spend now on cheap meat, but instead spent it on a lesser amount of farm-to-fork type meat, you'd end up with about the healthy recommended amount in your diet -- and you'll find greater enjoyment from it. Rather than have McDonald's three times a week, spend the same on one quality meat meal. A hamburger is great, if made with great beef. But I'd rather "save up" for making myself an awesome dish of osso bucco made from rose veal. Beyond the environmental and health benefits, it's a philosophical thing for me -- I'm the type who'd rather have nice things infrequently than crappy things whenever I want, and still spend the same money.

People raised as vegans? I know a few. If you were hanging out with them outside of mealtimes, you wouldn't know -- at least, not among the friends I know. There are sickly people in either camp, just as there are normal and "wow, you're in great shape!" people as well.

If you are arguing that Americans eat too much, you don't have to argue very hard.

There are also problems and environmental issues related to industrial farming. Yes, I agree.

I never go to McDonald's. I don't want to eat that crap. A cheeseburger can be made at home with better meat, better and more vegetables, and tastes a whole lot better. I do eat cheeseburgers at some fast food restaurants, though. They probably aren't much better in regards to industrial farming practices.

I would be surprised if these people raised vegan never had animal products while growing up. They never on the sly ate a hamburger or something once in a while? You may not be able to tell. But if you had identical twins and one was raised as a vegan and one consumed animal products I would guess that the one consuming animal products would be taller as an adult.

After World War II meat became more widely available in Japan. Now the Japanese are about 3 inches taller on average than before the war. There is also the danger of obesity that comes with the availability of meat. Obesity is becoming a problem in many countries other than the United States.

Everything in moderation.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Keep a few things in mind:

1) People don't generally like eating things that bring them mental anguish, whether it's because of emotional issues against animals-as-food or knowing that the pork chop on their plate came from a pig raised in a Tyson farm, likely contributing its waste to one of many leaking giant manure pits which have contaminated drinking water in many of the poorer areas of this country. So, those people make food choices which don't give them that anxiety.

2) Being vegan (or even vegetarian) is today possible only because of agriculture. I may have missed one, but from all I remember learning in anthropology classes, I don't remember a single non-agricultural vegetarian society. In other words, to fuel our brains and the rest of our bodies, we'd need animal protein supplementation because we simply couldn't gather enough plant calories from the wild.

3) You don't need to understand people who live their lives differently from yours, as long as they live theirs and let you live yours. I'm sure every one of us here has things which would seem bizarre to other people, sometimes defying logic, but I, for one, am not about to change what I do because someone else thinks I'm weird. I'd hope you'd do the same, and recognize that others should as well. I'm happy to share with you my reasons if you ask, but it's not an open invitation for anyone to make me change. I adapt my behavior as I learn new information, but not simply because someone else tells me to.

 

[Rosa moschata]

The "more meat = greater height" works only if they were getting insufficient nutrients prior to "more meat". What also happened after WWII in Japan (after reconstruction) was an increase in the average wealth of the people. And, on average, most people in industrial nations have been getting a little taller every generation as health standards improved, anyway -- childhood illnesses can stunt growth as well. It's hard to pinpoint one cause, especially in a correlation study (which only hints at a possible cause, requiring further investigation). The thing is, it's easy to get your minimum protein and some other nutrients if you have some meat (or fish) in your diet. If you remove that, you have to be a little more conscious of what you're eating in the course of the day. If you're going vegetarian or vegan, it's not just about what you subtract -- to be healthy, it's very important what you add.

But keep in mind, people who eat a lazy diet with meat are also often deficient in other nutrients which are easily found in lots of things vegetarians and vegans already add into their diets. Just for fun one day, you should write down everything you eat, and then the next day, look up the nutrient levels of everything and try to figure out if you got enough vitamins and minerals. Then, next time you stop at 7-11 for a soda, think about getting a V8 strawberry-banana, or some other veggie/fruit juice, instead. Or if you want a sandwich from a deli, see if they can put mesclun greens and/or spinach on it instead of iceberg lettuce, and see the nutrient difference with those choices. Meat-eating people questioning vegetarians or vegans are so quick to point to the "protein problem" while unaware that they, themselves, are likely low in vitamin A, E, etc.