Why do there have to be so expletive-deleted MANY different systems (sets of hand cues, words, approaches of how to get the behavior to start capturing it with cues, etc)?
[Really I am just venting not asking (I think I pretty much know the answer -- "b/c it is hard to teach group classes without a regimented system so people tend to create regimented systems and many of them work just about as well as many others so there is no reason for everyone to gravitate to just one"), although of course any commentary is welcome.]
I started on my own with one set of methods/words/motions for sit, stay, and down, based partly on books and partly on what husband's family "always used to" do. Husband took an intro obedience class that required changing almost all of them. Fine, we did. Then I took an intermediate obedience class with a different instructor. Somewhat different hand cues, and much more emphasis on shaping than on luring. Fine. Slight modifications, not entirely to her satisfaction but oh well.
Well, now I am taking another obedience class with yet another different pair of instructors with yet another TOTALLY different system. Their hand cue for down is what I'm using for sit, their sit and stand cues are different, they want major luring to get everything, different release word, no use whatsoever of "stay" (dog is supposed to just maintain whatever it was last told until released), etc.
I cannot cope with this. Really I can't.
I do realize that in a perfect world I would enroll in one person/school/club's system and stay there. However for some fairly good reasons that is not how it is happening, and this is driving me BONKERS.
I cried all the way home in the car from class last night, it was so frustrating. It isn't that my dog can't DO these things, he seems in fact to be considerably further along than anyone else in the class, but trying to change everything is confusing/stressing him and also frying MY brain. I end up just standing there unable to do *anything*, let alone ask the dog to Down.
One of the current instructors (a husband/wife team) is amenable, when asked, to *some* modifications. Last week when her husband was absent for the night I have showed her how Russell doesn't do well with food-in-hand luring b/c it is too distracting, and asked if it was ok with her if I motion with an empty hand, and she said sure, fine, she has a dog like that herself. This week I asked if it was ok not to keep rapid-fire rewarding the dog in position when trying to get it to hold position (without 'stay') because it just gets him too wound up, because I discovered a few days ago after two weeks of *frustrating* work that he actually does it pretty ok if I simply say "Sit" (or whatever) and then withhold rewarding him til I am good and ready. She was kind of "hmmmm" initially, but I showed her the difference in his reactions and she was pretty positive in saying "yes, ok, that obviously works better for him" and went over to tell her husband to stop bugging me to rapid-fire treat him in this circumstance.
But, they still seem really pretty set on me using their hand cues for things, and as I mentioned, their "down" is my already-well-ingrained "sit". (They do a raised left hand for 'sit', a raised right hand for 'down'; I've been doing a raised EITHER hand for sit, and a lowered either hand for down). I was told I do have to change this as my dog needs to be able to see the cue from a distance. Eh? I pointed out that when I park him in a stay at one end of the backyard and cue him from up to 250 feet away, I can run him thru sit-stand-down in any order on hand cues with no problem. They did not seem to believe me, and insisted I redo his cues. And they want every, EVERY thing really aggressively lured rather than using subtler prompts.
It's not that my dog can't learn all this, it's that a) *I* can't, not so many changes at the same time; and b) trying to change these basic things AND having me getting totally frazzled and upset in class is making *Russell* upset in class, and the main POINT of taking an obedience class with these folks was to get him more RELAXED in class so I can move on to their agility classes. (There are not a lot of options for agility classes within driving distance, and these folks have been recommended to me in particular as well)
I emailed them last night and said more or less the calm version of this, and asked apologetically if there was any way they'd be ok with maybe telling me what things are ESSENTIAL to change so I can limit my focus to that and to getting Russie more relaxed in class, rather than getting "auuuggh!" all over. I have no idea how they will respond; I know some horse trainers would be fine with that and others would be mortally offended, I assume the same range of variation exists in the dog world. If this is burning a bridge then so be it, though, because last night with the husband back in the class was REALLY not working for me at all and Russie got really stressed, I really don't want to keep going down that road.
WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO COMPLICATED? It seems to me that to a large degree, if the dog goes "down" according to SOME cue, and the cue is perceptible from some distance and with some distractions and does not interfere with other things the handler is likely to need to be doing, then what is the big deal? If I want to train the dog to stand up when I stick my fingers in my ears, why *not*? And if the dog deals better with less luring and not having food constantly shoved in his face, and learns things quickly and well that way, then why *not*? And frankly, does it make THAT much difference whether my release cue is "okay" versus "break" versus "all done" versus anything else? (The wife, of this pair of instructors, is very big on not using okay, yet she says that all her [pretty-successful] dogs except her current one WERE trained using okay as the release, so it is obviously not a *crippling* problem)
At the very least, why have all four of these instructors looked at me like I was from Mars when they found that I was already using some cues etc different from theirs? clearly there is HUGE variation in what people do out there, surely they must REGULARLY run into clients who are coming from systems different than their own, and ahve some efficient way of dealing with it other than to say 'well just relearn everythign this way'????
AARRRRRRRRGH.
Well, I have much more sympathy for the adult-beginner riders I used to teach, I'll tell ya THAT!
Thank you for letting me vent,
Pat
[Really I am just venting not asking (I think I pretty much know the answer -- "b/c it is hard to teach group classes without a regimented system so people tend to create regimented systems and many of them work just about as well as many others so there is no reason for everyone to gravitate to just one"), although of course any commentary is welcome.]
I started on my own with one set of methods/words/motions for sit, stay, and down, based partly on books and partly on what husband's family "always used to" do. Husband took an intro obedience class that required changing almost all of them. Fine, we did. Then I took an intermediate obedience class with a different instructor. Somewhat different hand cues, and much more emphasis on shaping than on luring. Fine. Slight modifications, not entirely to her satisfaction but oh well.
Well, now I am taking another obedience class with yet another different pair of instructors with yet another TOTALLY different system. Their hand cue for down is what I'm using for sit, their sit and stand cues are different, they want major luring to get everything, different release word, no use whatsoever of "stay" (dog is supposed to just maintain whatever it was last told until released), etc.
I cannot cope with this. Really I can't.
I do realize that in a perfect world I would enroll in one person/school/club's system and stay there. However for some fairly good reasons that is not how it is happening, and this is driving me BONKERS.
I cried all the way home in the car from class last night, it was so frustrating. It isn't that my dog can't DO these things, he seems in fact to be considerably further along than anyone else in the class, but trying to change everything is confusing/stressing him and also frying MY brain. I end up just standing there unable to do *anything*, let alone ask the dog to Down.
One of the current instructors (a husband/wife team) is amenable, when asked, to *some* modifications. Last week when her husband was absent for the night I have showed her how Russell doesn't do well with food-in-hand luring b/c it is too distracting, and asked if it was ok with her if I motion with an empty hand, and she said sure, fine, she has a dog like that herself. This week I asked if it was ok not to keep rapid-fire rewarding the dog in position when trying to get it to hold position (without 'stay') because it just gets him too wound up, because I discovered a few days ago after two weeks of *frustrating* work that he actually does it pretty ok if I simply say "Sit" (or whatever) and then withhold rewarding him til I am good and ready. She was kind of "hmmmm" initially, but I showed her the difference in his reactions and she was pretty positive in saying "yes, ok, that obviously works better for him" and went over to tell her husband to stop bugging me to rapid-fire treat him in this circumstance.
But, they still seem really pretty set on me using their hand cues for things, and as I mentioned, their "down" is my already-well-ingrained "sit". (They do a raised left hand for 'sit', a raised right hand for 'down'; I've been doing a raised EITHER hand for sit, and a lowered either hand for down). I was told I do have to change this as my dog needs to be able to see the cue from a distance. Eh? I pointed out that when I park him in a stay at one end of the backyard and cue him from up to 250 feet away, I can run him thru sit-stand-down in any order on hand cues with no problem. They did not seem to believe me, and insisted I redo his cues. And they want every, EVERY thing really aggressively lured rather than using subtler prompts.
It's not that my dog can't learn all this, it's that a) *I* can't, not so many changes at the same time; and b) trying to change these basic things AND having me getting totally frazzled and upset in class is making *Russell* upset in class, and the main POINT of taking an obedience class with these folks was to get him more RELAXED in class so I can move on to their agility classes. (There are not a lot of options for agility classes within driving distance, and these folks have been recommended to me in particular as well)
I emailed them last night and said more or less the calm version of this, and asked apologetically if there was any way they'd be ok with maybe telling me what things are ESSENTIAL to change so I can limit my focus to that and to getting Russie more relaxed in class, rather than getting "auuuggh!" all over. I have no idea how they will respond; I know some horse trainers would be fine with that and others would be mortally offended, I assume the same range of variation exists in the dog world. If this is burning a bridge then so be it, though, because last night with the husband back in the class was REALLY not working for me at all and Russie got really stressed, I really don't want to keep going down that road.
WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO COMPLICATED? It seems to me that to a large degree, if the dog goes "down" according to SOME cue, and the cue is perceptible from some distance and with some distractions and does not interfere with other things the handler is likely to need to be doing, then what is the big deal? If I want to train the dog to stand up when I stick my fingers in my ears, why *not*? And if the dog deals better with less luring and not having food constantly shoved in his face, and learns things quickly and well that way, then why *not*? And frankly, does it make THAT much difference whether my release cue is "okay" versus "break" versus "all done" versus anything else? (The wife, of this pair of instructors, is very big on not using okay, yet she says that all her [pretty-successful] dogs except her current one WERE trained using okay as the release, so it is obviously not a *crippling* problem)
At the very least, why have all four of these instructors looked at me like I was from Mars when they found that I was already using some cues etc different from theirs? clearly there is HUGE variation in what people do out there, surely they must REGULARLY run into clients who are coming from systems different than their own, and ahve some efficient way of dealing with it other than to say 'well just relearn everythign this way'????
AARRRRRRRRGH.
Well, I have much more sympathy for the adult-beginner riders I used to teach, I'll tell ya THAT!
Thank you for letting me vent,
Pat