Why does every single retail coop seller lie about how many chickens their coops can hold?

[DelawareBeesnHens]

To tie into the OP question: They don't lie necessarily, there isn't a global standard that is enforceable for them to comply to lower the numbers on the box. (Only speaking for the US )

How it starts, you go to your local chick store during the Spring months and decide to be a backyard chicken flock tender. You may have read a book, saw a few YT's, and feel prepared. You scope out the ridiculously priced prefabs and think the price must mean high quality. You buy a prefab that says "capacity 6-14" and you think to yourself "I can get 14?! YES!!!" You buy all the other overly expensive unnecessary stuff for baby chicks and take them home and setup your prefab. 6 months later, your chickens are cramped, all that chick gear is completely useless which leads you to an additional purchase of chicken feeders and waterers, chickens are pecking the backs of each other, and overall not happy environment. You notice the thin wood panels are warped, the metal fabric mesh is thin and rusting and now you are contemplating the whole experience -- was it worth it?

I truly wish we had more backyard chicken mentors like we do for beekeeping & apiaries. I read through all posts. I agree with the overall sentiment. Where I live in Southern Delaware, it's Mountaire Chicken and Perdue Farms and plants. I had my first hand view inside a Perdue Chicken farmer's "coop" a few years back and was shocked. 5000 chickens with little walking space waiting for their turn to be nuggets. The smell, the crowded environment -- I knew I had to change my setup -- which now I call it the penthouse coop for my chickens.

In reality, if commercial coops are allowed to stuff 5000 chickens in what looks like a small aircraft hanger, backyard pre-fabs will always be an issue -- first time buyers will always fall into the trap of getting them and I agree with other posters They grow their knowledge from experiencing the pitfalls of small coops and overcrowding. The coops work when they're 12 to 16 week old chicks -- it doesn't work when they become 6 months to 12 months of age and need space to determine appropriate pecking orders etc.

I myself fell into this trap years ago, I bought the first one from chickencoopcompany.com. We quickly outgrew once they became adult chickens, we then bought the largest one TSC had and that one worked for a bit. We ended up modifying it by adding a 10x20 run as the existing run wasn't big enough. We ended up getting more chickens and felt we ran out of capacity. So, we stopped buying new chicks each year and did the 10x12 Amish built shed with the 9 foot tall run so you don't break your back servicing the run and coop. Had we knew someone who ran a coop for several years, I'm sure we would have avoided a lot of effort and money on our chickens and have given them something they wouldn't outgrow right away or over time.

Not to put pressure on the stores and employees selling chicks each Spring.......BUT..... If I cannot go to a pet store and buy a bunch of fish without being questioned about how many fish tanks I own, how many liters/gallons they are, and what kind of fish are in each tank and how many --- WHY are we not asking probing questions to those purchasing the baby chicks? My guess is livestock vs "pet stock"... I can go in and purchase 10 to 20 chicks and not be asked about my home setup -- they want to ensure you buy a minimum of 2 chicks is all their requirement. /rantoff

 

[thistlewick]

People who start to keep backyard chickens are often ignorant in whats required to have healthy and happy chickens.

Yep, no one is denying that anywhere. Several people here have mentioned it over and over.

There just isn’t a one fits all solution.

Who said anything was one fits all? No one said that.

To *help* with the initial ignorance, having manufacturers change the allowances would make massive strides.

That's just a fact. It would help alleviate a lot of the issues that crop up.

I really don't care if the end-game is "less people having backyard chickens" at all. People who don't have enough space should not be having chickens, full stop. I don't care if they whinge.

To the person who said that we shouldn't even bother with worrying about backyard chickens until we worry about industrial farming practices... you're absolutely right.

But here is the reality of that; trying to change industrial practices will mean trying to take profit from corporations directly. When has that EVER won? Temple Grandin was able to achieve was she was able to achieve because her solutions for the peace of cattle going to slaughter *HELPED* them make more profit. It was a win/win.

I would rather effect some change where I can, instead of a sisyphean task of trying to create legislation to make corps spend money for less profit. That is never, ever, going to work.

If you have any ideas for how to increase the profits of industrial chicken farming while also increasing the space requirements for the birds, I'm all ears. We can write a mock up bill and send it to our senators.

 

[McChooky]

Life is good when your hens are happy and you get a lot of eggs.

 

[BDutch]

Yep, no one is denying that anywhere. Several people here have mentioned it over and over.


Who said anything was one fits all? No one said that.

I meant that the 10 or 40sqft/chicken inside a coop is good/great but it highly depends on the breed, the environment, the climate and probably more to decide whether this much space is necessary.

I had no intend to argue, sorry if I chose the wrong words.

To *help* with the initial ignorance, having manufacturers change the allowances would make massive strides.

Yes, I agree on this.

That's just a fact. It would help alleviate a lot of the issues that crop up.

I really don't care if the end-game is "less people having backyard chickens" at all. People who don't have enough space should not be having chickens, full stop. I don't care if they whinge.

To the person who said that we shouldn't even bother with worrying about backyard chickens until we worry about industrial farming practices... you're absolutely right.

But here is the reality of that; trying to change industrial practices will mean trying to take profit from corporations directly. When has that EVER won? Temple Grandin was able to achieve was she was able to achieve because her solutions for the peace of cattle going to slaughter *HELPED* them make more profit. It was a win/win.

Imho you cant forbid the BYC group things that are common practice in the chicken industry.

I would rather effect some change where I can, instead of a sisyphean task of trying to create legislation to make corps spend money for less profit. That is never, ever, going to work.

It can if governments make rules for a minimum welfare. They did in the EU and many EU countries added extra legislation for welfare (but still not enough imo).

If you have any ideas for how to increase the profits of industrial chicken farming while also increasing the space requirements for the birds, I'm all ears. We can write a mock up bill and send it to our senators.

One way is to give benefits like tax-free sales for the good eggs/chickens. And double taxes on poor eggs/meat. This way the farmers who do better and the consumers who buy better are rewarded. And many chickens have a better life.

 

[paintedChix]

Why has NO ONE ANYWHERE done the due diligence of simply researching a TEENY TINY BIT and discovering the 10 square feet rule. Why has NO ONE gone beyond the '4 square feet' of *commercial broiler guidelines*????

I am pissed about this - just was browsing around this morning... I don't need a new coop but I enjoy looking at them and how cute they are and just enjoy 'window shopping' for chicken things as a morning coffee routine and man I am irritated in the extreme.

How can we help change this? How can we as a community help *CHANGE THE DIALOGUE* and get the correct information out there?


If we can somehow manage to change the understanding, we're going to have a LOT LESS PROBLEMS with backyard chickens. The more room these birds are allowed to have, the happier and healthier they are. Full stop.


People just simply DO NOT HAVE this information - because every single business that is selling chicken coops has the 4 square foot rule in place, not the 10 square foot one. How can we disseminate all the knowledge built up here? Sitting on a forum isn't enough. It's just simply not enough. What is the greatest avenue for getting information out to people? Is it freaking Martha Stewart? lol

Just catching the people who *happen* to come here and ask questions just isn't enough. The knowledge built up here should be COMMON knowledge at this point, not some mysterious gatekept chicken secrets held fast only if you're willing to google and make a forum account and be willing to learn, etc etc

The fact that no one outside chicken nerds really knows any of this needs to change. I'm disgusted that the people trying to sell coops by and large don't even care to learn more than what is "industry standard for commercial farms".

Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.

I am going to actually try and research and figure out what I can do, to help educate. These forums are too passive. It's not enough.

My biggest pet peeve is that "no-one" seems to do any research. It's been especially noticed by me since COVID, but honestly, I've seen/experienced it since the 70's in a lot of other animal fields (horses/ponies/mules, dogs, cats, rabbits, multitudes of other small animals & reptiles). Probably noticed in other fields as well - but they aren't dealing w/ live critters. I have to be VERY careful w/ the different chicken groups I'm in (& previously horse & dog groups) as my mind always goes to "... Y are U so STUPID..." as my blood boils, LOL.

It isn't just the coop/run issue - it's a lot of others, too. I have to remember that we all started at the bottom, as rank beginners, IN SOMETHING. At least when folks come to BYC or to the different groups on FB (I don't do other social media platforms & currently my website/blog is down), they are "seeking knowledge"... This morning my thought was "... tell me ya know nothing about chickens, w/o telling me ya know nothing about chickens"... in regards to the same question on 3 different groups. "Why did my chickens stop laying? I can't buy feed, if they don't produce eggs." NO info about breed, # of birds, actual age, type/size of coop/run set up, where they live or what weather they experience etc. Then A LOT of responders totally freaked out, some very harshly, about "you can't stop feeding them"... I gave up.

Regarding your 5 points, I like all but point 4. I don't necessarily agree that we should have the government more up in our business. If you look a little deeper, you will find that many towns/cities w/I their counties, w/ I their state already have laws regarding animal keeping & maintenance - to include housing, fencing & #s allowed or suitable. Some actually include water & water usage & feeds/hays that are "allowed" vs "not allowed". And quite a few are not the same. Part of that is from our grandparents' times & has never been updated, part is that what works in NC may not work in ND. I don't really think that getting the government involved in sizing of shed/coop/runs that business's build/sell is something we need. I see it as adding more hassle, time & $$ to my purchase(s). I also see where it might make a company quit building the smaller items for the new owner, which could be bad. Reasons that could be bad - NO new owners coming into the industry; w/o making those maybe not so good purchases, the industry as a whole could lose an innovator - that could go on to make good & sweeping changes. There's probably more, I'm getting really tired...

Its AGAIN that the new owner did not research what is required or recommended & then gets wrong things and has issues, then comes to ask "us" how to fix it...

I'm going to post this & read the rest of the posts... may come back & add more or flesh out some things. Or may just do more posts. An interesting thread/rant...

 

[paintedChix]

Its buyer beware.

....and as P.T. Barnam said:
There's a sucker born every minute.

Those are the two things I wanted to put in my post & then lost my thread of thoughts!!

 

[paintedChix]

Humans as a whole are a lazy, ignorant species increasingly demanding to be ever more protected from the consequences of their bad choices.


Anyone can spend a few minutes free research - don't even need to buy a book - then quick mental math (use the calculator in your cell phone, if required) to figure out how big those coops are. The can also look at the window locations (drafts), lack of ventilation, weather exposed hinges, and general lack of quality materials and construction methods, and choose for themselves.

Its seems "reasonable" to do so before taking another creature's life in your hands.

But no? Instead we demand that the minimum wage cashier or stocker in a moderately low end farm store is going to be expert in every product in the store - from tractor impliments to electric fences, to medication for a half dozen species, battery powered garden tools, generators, welders, tractor oil, seasonal plants, coops and housing for a handful of species, tarps, fasteners, well pumps...

It is an unreasonable expectation.

Or we get "fits X birds" based on (at best) commercial standards not reflective of the conditions and methods under which most of us raise our birds. Perhaps voluntary associations will come into existence which set forth standards people will meet in order to advertise a "seal of approval". Or you can agitate for the Gov't setting standards (State or Federal) and tasking some agency (or "private attorneys general") to then enforce it - ilke California setting swine keeping standards.

Doesn't make the owners any smarter or better educated, just substitutes one "expert" for another. At least with the current disclosures, and a floor display (or again, a bit of mental math) the claims are so obviously overstated a reasonably educated person **SHOULD** hit pause and reconsider. Instead, when they find the coop (like the magic beauty cream or the instant hair growth pill) doesn't work, they beg someone else to free them from the consequences of their own decisions.

and once protected, even less likely to invest the time to do a little research before making their next lifestyle choice...

WOW!

This.

 

[Squawkers]

WOW!

This.

Wow and very true

 

[thistlewick]

I wrote a very long reply initially, and in my due diligence as I was replying, found this;

Federal Standards for Organic Poultry

It's even worse than we thought; so. 1.5 square feet per bird, 6 inches of roost space.

*KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF PEOPLE* go to town, crowd those birds. Then come here and ask all your questions why everything is going poorly. But hey, you're doing what federal government requires so you're doing the right thing, right?

People the government doesn't care about the *actual* welfare of these animals. They just care about the profit one can make.


In industrial chicken practices in the US, broilers are killed for their meat at 10 weeks old. Laying hens are culled at 18-24 months. They aren't living long enough for *anyone* to care what their lives are like.


This is kinda why changing the manufacturers guidelines would be useful and helpful -- because backyard chicken keepers aren't trying to be industrial.

 

[Squawkers]

It's even worse than we thought; so. 1.5 square feet per bird, 6 inches of roost space.

No way anybody with brains would do that