Why Organic?

[SeaChick]

That small farmer who sells pork for $5/lb w/processing is not making enough money to stay in business.

That small farmer has a diversified farm. He raises vegs and eggs as well as pork. He uses his his pork and vegetables to make specialty products like home-smoked bacon and sausage, on which he makes a large profit. He and his family won't get rich but they are doing fine and area ble to live a lifestyle they WANT to live, on a DEVERSIFIED farm, unlike many traditional (read: chemically-motivated singe-crop) farmers who have felt pressured to go to single-crop farming to make a living.

I am sure that you know a LOT about one method of farming, the regular, big-ag, gov't subsidized way. But there ARE other viable ways for farmers to exist, which can support their families (WITHOUT government subsidies of our tax dollars!!!) that are sustainable for futore generations to farm the same land without finding it depleted. We choose to support these farmers, as many here on this board and in our cimmunity also do. That's yet another way that they will be able to continue what theyre doing. Why do you think that's such a bad/wrong thing? Y'all can continue your "traditional" farming practices if you want, but my family -and countless like-minded consumers- will seek out and support these small organic guys.

If you have not read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollen, I beg you to do so. It is always good to have all sides of the story, don't you think?​

 

[SeaChick]

This is simply NOT the case,

Of course its the case! My goodness, who do you think made the rules in the first place? The original purponents of real organic gardening in the back woods of Vermont or whereever? No... they were shaped with much input from lobbyists. Did the little guys hire the lobbysists? Nope- Industrial Organic did. My point was that these new labels don't mean much, and that's too bad, since yes, you're right, consumers will now not trust it. But as I also said, we CAN speak directly to the producers, as we do, before buying much of what we consume. And hopefully st some point the labeling will get straightened out. I still believe it's a good thing that so many mainstream families are starting to care about where their food comes from.

This is getting out of hand. You understand my point of view and I understand yours, and if I had all day I could dig out all my references, but I have too much else to do and I really don't want to argue.

I do beg you to read Michael Pollen's book. It's the most concise collection of information on this that I can think of. I'd send you mine if I hadn't already loaned it out.

Happy holidays,
Stacey​

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

Quote:
Actually Stacy you don't know my position, I have simply been providing a counter balance to the "organic is perfect" position.

The whole Organic versus Conventional is full of grey areas.

Here is an example for you, I am a huge fan of no-till crop production. It helps the soil, increases microbial and earthworm populations. I also reduces surface run-off by improving water permeability in the soil. HOWEVER, to be successful in no-till you must use chemical herbicides, definitely not Organic, but eco-friendly.

In contrast Organic row crop production uses no chemicals, but relies upon the moldboard plow and multiple cultivation to limit weed pressure. The results in more run-off, greater soil loss, and more silt and sediment in the streams and rivers which is bad for the environment.

Definitely a catch 22 situation.

I also have serious issues with Organic producers that refuse to use antibiotics in sick animals which results in needless animal suffering. As I have serious issues with conventional livestock producers that ignore good stockmanship and rely on buttons and switches.

Jim

 

[CarlaRiggs]

It would be wonderful if we could all live 'organically' and not use chemicals of any kind. But this is just not reality. Chemicals are everywhere, in our waters, our homes, our clothes... everywhere.
While here in southern California I can attend farmers' markets every day of the week if I wanted, this isn't the case with the majority of people. My oldest daughter lives in Carmel, just north of Indianapolis. No nearby farmers markets with fresh produce there. Snow creates a whole 'nother world.

There are continuing articles in this area concerning growers who use the farmers markets and restaurant buyers to maintain their income. It's a struggle. Many of them live on the edge, with no benefits.

The thing that bothers me about some of these postings is the fact that I am left with the idea that all government/big business is bad. They will lie and shouldn't be trusted. Food grown this way will eventually kill you unnaturally. I don't believe this. My brother has a small garden in the desert, growing organically. He kept a 1/2 acre garden for a restaurant there for years. Looking into 'organic' there are a series of big hoops to jump through to be able to legally use that label. It wasn't worth it to him to be certified organic, though that's how he gardened.

To feed the millions upon millions of people that this nation feeds, we cannot go purely organic. There has to be help through other methods. I don't believe that we should be so intent on one type over another, that we entirely reject anything.

Certainly there is a larger movement now for sustainable living. But not everyone can accomplish this. It's wonderful if a family can have a plot large enough to be self-sustaining. Our church had a large fruit orchard about an hour from here. I helped to prune hundreds of the fruit trees (along with other members of our church), thinned the fruit, harvested it, canned it at our cannery in Los Angeles and then helped to distribute it to others. It was fun to see the entire process. But if *any* of the fruit had worms, by law we weren't able to can it. I could take it home and can it for myself, but for thousands of needy people, there was no canned fruit.

Organic is wonderful, but there are too many others who depend upon the way the system is built now. It is built this way because previous organic, small farm methods weren't enough. Hopefully we can begin to segue into more holistic methods as we come to know and appreciate other ways to live, but the main idea is to feed those who depend upon the food we raise now.

I'd also like people to boycott the Chinese imports at Walmart and its ilk, but I know this just ain't gonna happen!

 

[Rosalind]

It helps the soil, increases microbial and earthworm populations. I also reduces surface run-off by improving water permeability in the soil. HOWEVER, to be successful in no-till you must use chemical herbicides

I have not had that experience, working with clay and silty soils. I did have to leave ground basically fallow for a year and a half while the cover fabric smothered the weeds though. How do you grow anything other than Roundup Ready GMO seeds on land that has been treated with broad-spectrum herbicides?

Just curious. I too am a fan of no-till methods, but there are ways to do it without herbicides. You do need a time commitment, which I understand most farmers simply cannot afford to do. Then again, if you can't afford to do any crop rotation with a fallow year in between, you're going to make another Dust Bowl scenario in the long run anyway.​

 

[seedcorn]

As someone who makes his living working w/farmers, I THANK ALL OF YOU FOR THIS DISCUSSION.

1) SeaChick, I am glad to hear YOU will pay for food grown the way you want it grown, 99% of America won't and the 3rd world people who want to eat better, just want food.
a) if you truly check out what you feed, you will be bitterly disappointed that you can't buy organic feed in America. Unless you have someone on a farm that grows all the ingredients and is certified organic.
b) farmers are statistacly the healthiest people in America but also have the highest cancer rate. Probably from chemical we're around. Think we would switch if we could? Why GMO products are SO POPULAR.

2) Rosalind, I'm glad you open to different ways but w/o chemicals, you can't grow large amount of crops profitably. you can't be tilling the ground, disking, planting, cultivating 2X, hoeing, like my g'parents did. Cost of equip/fuel will break you.

In IN, we've had people try it, they get 80bu yields/a. 80X5 is $400/a. Rent is $150, Seed/fert is $300/a w/o getting into labor, equip. If you think you can get by w/o fert. see Uof I where they have patch that is grown that way. 80 bu. is a good year--that's w/5' of topsoil, here in Indiana we're lucky to have 5" of topsoil. Plus if we all grew 80 bu corn, the price would be $10/bu.

I truly look forward to your input.

 

[seedcorn]

on which he makes a large profit.

No he doesn't plus he can't get enough volume out to sustain himself. Why do you think the small Amish farmers are going out. yes they are buying dirt/farms but that's because they have 6 kids working in town making $40,000 a year and it is all given to Dad who has to buy him a house/start when he gets married. Even the Amish are renting their farms away, until some of the communities have a teen pregnancy and alchohol problem that the bishops are mandating that they go back to farming.. go figure, same problems as "english" America...

 

[SeaChick]

Seedcorn,

My pig farmer and several other people I know ARE making a living farming. Yes, they are. Without government subsidies, Daddy-bought houses, or any of it. At least here, it can be done. No, they're not getting rich, but yes, they are supporting their families in the manner they desire to live: simply, working hard on their diversified farms. And "on which he makes a large profit" referred to one small portion of his end product: the handmade goods like sausage, preserved fermented products like Kim Chee, yogurt, etc. They charge (what seem to me) outlandish prices for these, and people pay them. I am sure it's his highest profit-margin product, and probably one of the ways he makes ends meet. His wife also sels exquisite flower bouquets in season. They are creative, diversified, and making ends meet.

Now, I am going back to talking about chickens. FWIW, I am looking for a local grain source for chicken feed, I think I may have one, but have been too busy to track it down since my girls go through so little feed. I do not care about organic certification, mainly no GMOs, pesticides, or herbicides. I know there are small growers locally producing like this (since I know local livestock farmers who use the stuff) who aren't high-enough-volume to bother jumping through the certification hoops.

 

[Rosalind]

seedcorn, what economic assumptions are you starting with? It looks like you are starting with a lot of base conditions that I simply don't experience, partly because of your location. I can't effectively answer why my experience might be different without knowing what those differences are.

-What do you consider "large"? 1000 acres? 10,000? 100,000?

-It looks like you're assuming land rental, possibly many other costs. What are those costs, itemized?

-If you only have 5" of topsoil, then yes, you might as well set up an aquaculture system for all the chemistry you're going to need--you're practically growing on rocks. Some areas are blessed with more topsoil, some don't require as much irrigation, etc. The no-till method Lazy J mentioned really, really minimizes

tilling the ground, disking, planting, cultivating 2X, hoeing,

very effectively. Also irrigation costs. Again, location is going to make a huge difference in how much rainfall, what organic fertilizers are available to you, etc.

-Kinda laughed at this bit, sorry:

you can't be tilling the ground, disking, planting, cultivating 2X, hoeing, like my g'parents did.

My cousins, aunts and uncles are Old Order Mennonite, some Amish. They do exactly that. But again, you're talking about a very different set of economic assumptions.

Generally I think that economically, farming is not a regular moneymaker for anyone who does not have economies of scale like ADM, Monsanto, Pfizer et al. whether you use chemicals or not. But the original question was not about whether or not small farmers could survive economically in these modern times--it was about whether we individually prefer less chemicals in our food and why. Now, with respect to the great masses of people our Midwestern breadbasket feeds, global policy on food distribution and foreign policy on cereal trades is a little bit more complicated than whether or not we personally buy Cascadian Farms brand frozen veggies. I don't think I am quite ready to tackle that discussion just yet!

 

[panner123]

Earlier today I was making a batch of spaghetti sauce and I opened a case of S&W tomato sauce, only to find half organic and half regular. I am sure they didn't just run out of one and decide to fill it with the other. I am willing to bet they put the labels on so many regular and some many organic, all out of the same batch of tomatos. Goes to show you what a large company will do. This couldn't have happened at a
better time with this topic going on.