Wolf kills mule

[Candace69]

No, it is not rooted in the argument of manifest destiny, it is rooted in the bible. The Indians before any European man stepped foot on this soil, had tribes, and each tribes considered themselves above another; some tribes even wiped each other out. They believed in their great spirit. Not in manifest destiny.
The bible, as I quoted from Genesis, is where God put us over the earth and the animals. If you beleive in evolution or do not even beleive in god, you COULD and I say COULD, argue that man has the right due to only the strongest survive. The right to destroy.
If you read what I put, there HAVE been mistakes made, there are always tyranical people in anything, but it has to do with the mindset of the individual, in everything under the sun there are those who are in the extreme in every belief....
But plainly, what God laid down in the bible was that every animal is in Subjection to man. Plain, simply, and we are to do what we need to to subdue the earth; to be productive with it. I have the honor of practicing the world's oldest profession, which is animal husbandry. There are certain animals placed in my care, and I am excepted to protect them; care for them, provide for them. So no, I don't believe in manifest destiny as it is used in reference to what you say, justifying mass destruction, as any person that is in subjection to God takes his responsibilities seriously. And I am not talking "religion" as religion is of man, IMO, but that is another story, but I wanted to make that clear so we didn't get hung up on that. What I am saying, is those that take to heart truly what is laid out in the bible in regards to the care of the earth, the care of the animals, everything under their care, ARE the ranchers, the farmers, the hunters, yes, the hunters too. I know everyone I have gotten to know that is in either of these professions have more respect and knowledge of the environment than even some of the so called experts. These are the ones that have been out there, practicing what has been handed down to them for centuries. They don't just shoot to shoot, they know that the cougar that should be there is what takes out the deer, without the cougar, the deer become over populated and cause harm to crops. Without leaving some deer, the cougar have nothing to eat and will predate the stock.
That was why I posted a response, I wasn't going to due to the mindset of some being what it was on this topic, but when the lumping of ranchers in a group that just destroys shows this person has never really gotten to KNOW the people he has judged. Yes, judged, by these very words....
The wolves were killed by the same mindset as the ones that wiped out the buffalo, and our government sponsored it, yes, it was a travesty when it happened, but to judge people today by that class of people is also a travesty IMO.
Ranchers are not that way, I took exception to the lumping of them all in that mindset. I am a goat and sheep rancher, no not huge, but I am. I run LGDS, I would shoot if needed, but the LGDs handle and keep the predators at bay so they hunt thier natural prey. I live in the middle of 3 or 4 9000+ ranches, and I know how they do business, and it is not that way.... So, by saying what is said here, that this is the way every rancher behaves, is a slap in the face and I felt I needed to respond; as the mindset is totaly unjust.
No, I am sorry, but there is no way you can justify letting a person be killed so the wolf can live; there is no balance in that no matter what way you look at it.

There is a reason for this, because farmers/ranchers will show zero discretion when killing wolves. They allowed you to kill them at your discretion before and you see where that got us, no wolves at all. I grew up in an area with alot of ranchers, they don't just kill wolves on their land. They kill ABSOLUTELY EVERY SINGLE WOLF/COYOTE THAT THEY SEE NO MATTER WHO'S LAND IT IS ON. Beautiful thing about guns, they shoot over fences. Not one single rancher will ever hesitate to kill a wolf no matter what it is doing and whose land it is on.....you see wolf, wolf dies and that is exactly how it goes. This is the reality of the situation, you will kill them out of existence and you think it is your right to do so, like all men.....kill what gets in our way. Well you can't have it like that because there are decent people who will stand up and say no you don't. So we have to nail you guys to the fence for doing whatever you want with zero consideration for anything other than themselves, the wolves are more important than your ranch, than anyone's ranch. We have a choice where we live, they don't.....we will kill them if they stray to far from protected lands. No one will kill you for straying over your fence line will they. No one is saying you have to sell you land and move away but you can't move out there and expect all the animals to move away for you either. There are millions of acres of good cattle land in this country, wolves have a very limited range considering how they used to roam.

Having 9000 acres does not remove responsibility from you, having rough terrain doesn't either. I used to hunt on a 10,000 acre cattle ranch and you know what his stance was on predators/poachers......You shouldn't be in the cattle business if you can't afford to lose a few head to starving people/animals. It's one of the risk of the industry and to try and kill everything that gets close to your livestock is absurd.

People keep harping on the fact these wolves aren't native. Yes there is a reason for that as well and we all know what it is....RANCHERS. Because of zero discretion about borders, shooting wolves whenever you see them (and don't act like this isn't what will happen because it is what happened and got us to this current situation) and now all the native wolves are gone. So we lose a precious part of our ecosystem so a few families can live out in the wilds and kill everything that encroaches on their land.....the wilds they encroached upon first. So they move out, buy land to big for them to control and now want to control it all with a gun. Well I say thank god for the treehuggers for saving us from ourselves and our wanton destruction of everything in our path. Things deserve to live, even if they would kill humans if we get to close to them.

 

[justuschickens59]

No, it is not rooted in the argument of manifest destiny, it is rooted in the bible. The Indians before any European man stepped foot on this soil, had tribes, and each tribes considered themselves above another; some tribes even wiped each other out. They believed in their great spirit. Not in manifest destiny.
The bible, as I quoted from Genesis, is where God put us over the earth and the animals. If you beleive in evolution or do not even beleive in god, you COULD and I say COULD, argue that man has the right due to only the strongest survive. The right to destroy.
If you read what I put, there HAVE been mistakes made, there are always tyranical people in anything, but it has to do with the mindset of the individual, in everything under the sun there are those who are in the extreme in every belief....
But plainly, what God laid down in the bible was that every animal is in Subjection to man. Plain, simply, and we are to do what we need to to subdue the earth; to be productive with it. I have the honor of practicing the world's oldest profession, which is animal husbandry. There are certain animals placed in my care, and I am excepted to protect them; care for them, provide for them. So no, I don't believe in manifest destiny as it is used in reference to what you say, justifying mass destruction, as any person that is in subjection to God takes his responsibilities seriously. And I am not talking "religion" as religion is of man, IMO, but that is another story, but I wanted to make that clear so we didn't get hung up on that. What I am saying, is those that take to heart truly what is laid out in the bible in regards to the care of the earth, the care of the animals, everything under their care, ARE the ranchers, the farmers, the hunters, yes, the hunters too. I know everyone I have gotten to know that is in either of these professions have more respect and knowledge of the environment than even some of the so called experts. These are the ones that have been out there, practicing what has been handed down to them for centuries. They don't just shoot to shoot, they know that the cougar that should be there is what takes out the deer, without the cougar, the deer become over populated and cause harm to crops. Without leaving some deer, the cougar have nothing to eat and will predate the stock.
That was why I posted a response, I wasn't going to due to the mindset of some being what it was on this topic, but when the lumping of ranchers in a group that just destroys shows this person has never really gotten to KNOW the people he has judged. Yes, judged, by these very words....
The wolves were killed by the same mindset as the ones that wiped out the buffalo, and our government sponsored it, yes, it was a travesty when it happened, but to judge people today by that class of people is also a travesty IMO.
Ranchers are not that way, I took exception to the lumping of them all in that mindset. I am a goat and sheep rancher, no not huge, but I am. I run LGDS, I would shoot if needed, but the LGDs handle and keep the predators at bay so they hunt thier natural prey. I live in the middle of 3 or 4 9000+ ranches, and I know how they do business, and it is not that way.... So, by saying what is said here, that this is the way every rancher behaves, is a slap in the face and I felt I needed to respond; as the mindset is totaly unjust.
No, I am sorry, but there is no way you can justify letting a person be killed so the wolf can live; there is no balance in that no matter what way you look at it.

I appreciate your arguments, however, just because you know some good ranchers and hunters, it doesn't mean they are all good and honest. I agree, there are good hunters, I was raised in a family of hunters. However, not ALL people that hunt are good and virtuous. If this were the case, we wouldn't have hunters poaching animals until they are extinct. Here, where I live, we see hunters sitting on the side of the roads in their trucks drinking their beer while they wait for their dogs to run the deer out so they can shoot them, which results in a lot of car accidents. This is not conscientious hunting. There are some hunters who build stands, feed the deer to lure them into thinking it is a safe place to eat, then they watch them for months while they pick out the particular animal they want to kill for its horns or head or whatever - this is also no conscientious hunting. Men kill for money, for hides, for skin, for ivory, or for whatever will bring them $$$. Some kill just for a rack of antlers or a pair of boots. And some kill just for "sport." Some men kill animals just because they can. I'm sorry, this is not what animals are on this planet for. It has been proved over and over that if men are left to their own device, with no laws to govern them, they will kill until extinction. This isn't just my opinion - it is a fact. Look at what is happening to our oceans and rivers - over fishing is a huge issue today. So many animals are in danger of becoming extinct because of MAN. Because it is the believe of man that they can use and abuse every resource on this planet as they please and they never give a thought to the consequences, and most don't care even if they do think about it.

As far as the religion part - why does religion have to be brought in every single thing? Not everybody believes in the Christian God and the Bible. Just because a person does believe in it does not automatically make him a good steward of this planet, or even a good person. Some people, myself included, who do not believe in the Bible do not believe that animals were put here to be in subjection to man. Humans could learn a lot from animals if we would come down off our sanctimonious pedestal and open our minds and hearts.

This is JMO. I know everybody does not share it, but it is my right to have it.

 

[sourland]

Relinquishing 'our' sanctimonious pedestal might just be a very good idea.

 

[Candace69]

If you read my post before and the one you quote, my original issues arose from all ranchers and farmers being lumped into one mindset, all are bad,etc, that's what I was trying to get across. In this post and the original, I was not one stating "all were good" I stated that there can be good and bad in all:
Quote" there HAVE been mistakes made, there are always tyranical people in anything, but it has to do with the mindset of the individual, in everything under the sun there are those who are in the extreme in every belief.."
justuschickens59 where did I ever say all were good? I said all weren't bad, there is a differance, I had an issue with the statement that all were bad. I stated that there were ones that truly practiced as they had been taught, and that was where the belief in God came in, as all my point was in regards to God was all ranchers/hunters/farmers I know have the values handed down to them by parents and grandparents, which is a belief system based on the bible, which includes the good stewardship of the land. I know ok many who say they believe in God do not practice what they preach. but that does not make me say all who beielve are bad. Good and bad in both is what I say. Never did I say all.
I took exception to the statements that all "Not one single rancher will ever hesitate to kill a wolf no matter what it is doing and whose land it is on.....you see wolf, wolf dies and that is exactly how it goes." And that is not the case period. You can never state absolutes like that. Yes, there are hunters that make me cringe, and my husband, and my son's, but we are hunters too, and that person doing bad does not make us bad.

*sigh, This was why I stopped posting to this thread, as just stating on the side of people that they are not all bad, gets people's ire up.
But stating that all are bad, all ranchers, that is ok? No one can say that all aren't? Without starting an argument?

 

[Candace69]

justuschickens59, this thread is getting very passionate, and I just read you weren't saying I said all, my misunderstanding, but my point in what I wrote, is as I stated, the same. Simply, just because there are bad, doesn't make us all bad. I am a rancher, maybe not of 9000 acres, but stating that "every single rancher", lumps me in and judges me and those I know. Everyone has to point out to the "bad", allot of the ones that hunted the wolf were not even ranchers, the government offered money for pelts so money hungry people killed them. Looking back it turns my stomach.
Learn from the animals? If only you really knew me, you'd know how I am with that. I am a good steward; I respect and love my animals, look on the threads just here and see my posts explaining the LGD, I talk about them as my partner. I respect and love them.
I just take exception to the lumping of "ALL".

 

[speckledhen]

Since this has now veered off into religion, seems a good time to close it.