Worming with DE

[Lady of McCamley]

LoMcC, what websites did you go to for your information? Thanks.

Which line of thought as I covered a lot of territory and have a lot of different sites depending on the answer....I read a lot of stuff from a broad spectrum to find what appears to be general consensus.
LofM

 

[gootziecat]

This is interesting information:
FYI: The -zole type wormers target the digestive tract and typcially do not enter into the egg tract, or do so only in trace amounts, while the -mectin type wormers are systemic and thus do enter the eggs...and also can be quite harmful to sensitive individuals ("if white feet, don't treat."). Many of the wormers (Pyrethrin for one) are used as human de-wormers in the US by prescription, however, are not legal for poultry layers here. In England, flubendazole 1% (Panacur and Safeguard) is legal to administer to egg layers without egg pulling, however it is not legal in the US.

Also:
In further reading, I read that Hygromycin B is very toxic if inhaled...so you wouldn't want to pulverize it into something that could be inhaled...thus they make the pellet very hard indeed.

I'm certainly not questioning any of your information. I'd simply like to read the article myself to gleen what I can. Evidently you have done extensive reading.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

This is interesting information:
FYI: The -zole type wormers target the digestive tract and typcially do not enter into the egg tract, or do so only in trace amounts, while the -mectin type wormers are systemic and thus do enter the eggs...and also can be quite harmful to sensitive individuals ("if white feet, don't treat."). Many of the wormers (Pyrethrin for one) are used as human de-wormers in the US by prescription, however, are not legal for poultry layers here. In England, flubendazole 1% (Panacur and Safeguard) is legal to administer to egg layers without egg pulling, however it is not legal in the US.

Also:
In further reading, I read that Hygromycin B is very toxic if inhaled...so you wouldn't want to pulverize it into something that could be inhaled...thus they make the pellet very hard indeed.

I'm certainly not questioning any of your information. I'd simply like to read the article myself to gleen what I can. Evidently you have done extensive reading.

Hi Gootziecat,
I'm happy to pass along some of the reading I've done if that is helpful to you...I only know what I've read...and I also like to research to try to become more knowledgeable.

Again, I'm not championing for Hygromycin B or any other chemical...nor any particular herbal wormer....just passing along information and gleaning information from others on this amazingly complicated topic with so many divergent opinions.

So, here is a smattering of the sites I've gleaned from. hopefully not too convoluted a trail ( I've had more than one of those wading through all the brochures and literature).

General worming (with links...note UK site so info does not pertain to US):
http://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/worming-chickens

General herbal worming efficacy:
http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm#BOTANICAL DEWORMERS (it's from ruminants, but can be extrapolated for poultry)
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/herbalwormer.htm (compares herbals to chemicals, discussed with goats, but Molly's Herbal is also used successfully for chickens )

General chemical wormers information:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...ons/overview_of_helminthiasis_in_poultry.html

Drug residue in eggs...a fairly negative piece about any chemical as this article claims most produce residue in eggs which is why we have to pull eggs after worming:
http://www.farad.org/publications/miscellaneous/LayingHensEggResidues.pdf

Articles specific to:
Ivermectin http://www.drugs.com/mmx/ivermectin.html
Also...I own a Shetland Sheepdog, and my daughter is a Vet Tech...my dog carries one of the drug sensitive genes...in the Vet world, with the -mectins the mantra is "if white feet don't treat" as it can cause neural seizures in sensitive individuals


Hygromycin B (warnings to toxicity)
http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/lookup.cfm?setid=91a853ec-3f05-4feb-8d30-3038d08b5fae

And of course I can't find the google bookmark for the article that compared the -zoles to the -mectins...I'll keep looking for that...unfortunately Google scrambled some of my older bookmarks and I think it dropped a few :SIGH:.

...nor the study of egg residue on Hygromycin B :sigh:...however I can trace backward with logic to it by the following government codes

§ 556.330 Hygromycin B.
A tolerance of zero is established for
residues of hygromycin B in or on eggs
and the uncooked edible tissues of
swine and poultry.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title21-vol6/pdf/CFR-2012-title21-vol6-part556-subpartB.pdf

FDA has approved the use of Hygromycin B in poultry as per the following code with no egg withdrawal...therefore I can assume the government studies (that I can't find but Elanco refers to) indicates no significant residue is found

Elanco's own literature on Hygromycin B with cited sources (claims no significant residue in eggs, cites 19. Wellenreiter, RE, et al. Hygromycin Egg Residue Study. CK-722.1971. 20. Berkman, RN, et al. Hygromycin Excretion Studies in Chickens. Exp. VPR-84-418.):
http://www.elanco.us/pdfs/hygromix-frequently-asked-questions.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4592490 (another study...but I can't access due to database)

Government code on Hygromycin B (in case you are interested...pretty boring stuff but important if you want to remain within FDA regs)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...R-2007-title21-vol6-part558.xml#seqnum558.274

...and finally OP's original question...does DE work? Actually, no and is harmful to respiratory tracts of man and animals
http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/2012/05/diatomaceous-earth-de-benefitrisk.html
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html

Message me if you find other useful information or contradictory information you would like to share...as I said I am always learning and growing....and I am not so naive as to think the FDA isn't capable of being manipulated by a manufacturer...however it has also become increasingly sensitive to all animal medication procedures in the food chain

My overall goal is to keep the healthiest happiest hens to produce the healthiest eggs for my family as naturally as possible but realistically within the animal world of parasites and disease...sometimes you just gotta use the big stuff....so I read, read, read, and ask a lot of questions.

...and I'll keep looking for that good article on -mectins vs. -zoles

HTH
Lady of McCamley

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Unless you've SEEN worms. or done fecal tests, you shouldn't be worming them anyway.
For the healthiest flock, don't bother to keep any that don't have a high natural resistance to worms

 

[gootziecat]

LoMcC, I am humbled by your research, the number of sites, and the vast amount of reading you have done. Thank you for share so much with the rest of us. I will be busy for a while. lol.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

LoMcC, I am humbled by your research, the number of sites, and the vast amount of reading you have done. Thank you for share so much with the rest of us. I will be busy for a while. lol.

Gootziecat,
As I promised, here's the article from Encyclopedia Britannica that discusses how each type of wormer works. It appears to be thorough and readable. It covers several -zoles, -mectin, and hygromycin (touched on lightly...more at end of post)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/27270/anthelmintic

It explains that Albendazole (Valbazine) and Menbendazole remain chiefly in the intestinal tract to target intestinal worms by starving them from the glucose (energy) source.

(A separate drug article that indicates Albendazole (Valbazine) is thought to remain in the intestinal tract and paralyze and kill parasites there...however at high doses it too can become systemic entering into the tissues.
http://www.gsk.com.au/resources.ash...A5A426A12E0571C7D1CFB0A6/PI_ZENTEL_Issue2.pdf )

Ivermectin/Avermectin is a systemic drug that interferes with the protein/neural transmission within worms to paralyze them and allow the body's defense to eliminate them...however there are numerous studies that show neural toxicity can also be experienced by the host (the dog, chicken, kitten, fetus, etc.) Usually at large doses, but some dogs (and the concern is other susceptible individuals/animals) have a gene mutation that makes them sensitive to the toxicity build of in the -mectin producing ataxia (involuntary muscle tremors and coma).

One Canadian study on -mectin in kitten toxicity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1481314/?page=1

The clearest and quickest explanation on how Ivermectin works is on Wikipedia...not a source I like to recommend...however this particular article is well done and has solid references linked...when Wikipedia articles are clear like that, they can be useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

Because of my Sheltie fluff ball, I like to keep -mectins off my premises. I'm also more leery of something that is absorbed into the bloodstream for distribution that attacks the neural/muscular responses if I can find something that targets intestinal only.

However, if my Lab had heartworm, I would be smearing Ivermectin between her shoulder blades and watching that my Sheltie didn't play with her for several days.

**Hygromycin B is an aminoglycoside (like neomycin, etc.) and has been used by the poultry industry since 1957 for treatment for worms as it hinders the protein-synthesis in the worm (starving it) and it is eliminated from the intestinal tract. It is absorbed poorly by the gut, and thus is used in continuous feed. References below for that fact...very long articles (sorry)...
http://campus.usal.es/~galenica/clinpkin/Aminoglycosides.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1797780/


So as you see, it is a long convoluted path to glean that -zoles and the -mycins tend to stay in the digestive tract, disarming the worms for expulsion, while the -mectins are systemic.

Each have their uses. Each have their negative side effects. Each person must choose what is the best course of action for their needs.
HTH...happy reading....

Lady of McCamley

 

[kwestley]

I'm a newbie, and I have been wondering about deworming the chickens for awhile! My hens are around 22 weeks old, and they are very heathy (from what I can tell!). As a human, we don't usually deworming ourself every 6 months unless you have symptoms that indicate you have worm! Now, I understand we don't spend our days scratching in the dirt or eat things off from the ground, but do we really have to do it even we don't see any worms or symptoms that indicate our chickens have worms?

Why DE when there are medicines out there that can help deworm the chickens? What is wrong with modern medicine? No offense to anyone, I am just curious and trying to learn new things that I might not known or understood!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I'm a newbie, and I have been wondering about deworming the chickens for awhile! My hens are around 22 weeks old, and they are very heathy (from what I can tell!). As a human, we don't usually deworming ourself every 6 months unless you have symptoms that indicate you have worm! Now, I understand we don't spend our days scratching in the dirt or eat things off from the ground, but do we really have to do it even we don't see any worms or symptoms that indicate our chickens have worms?

Why DE when there are medicines out there that can help deworm the chickens? What is wrong with modern medicine? No offense to anyone, I am just curious and trying to learn new things that I might not known or understood!

Well...surprisingly that's a big question in its own way and will depend a whole lot upon your philosophy of chicken farming as opinions tend to vary...with some rather strongly.

Veterinary literature will explain that parasites in domesticated poultry is a matter of "when" not "if" because we keep them in small confined areas rather than letting them roam free or in large fields that are regularly rotated resulting in worm build up as the chickens poo passing worm eggs and then eat those worm eggs as they scratch continuing the parasite's reproduction cycle.

But even with good field rotation there is all the wild critters that bring in all manner of parasite and disease such as wild birds, mice and rats (if you ever doubt wild critters are riddled with parasites, do a necropsy on a dead wild bird or rat). And yes, chickens scratch in the dirt that critters have run (and pooed) through, and eat the stuff that carries parasites (earthworms being an example).

Veterinary literature explains that worms are present even if you see no signs. (My daughter is a Vet Tech, so I can personally testify to that as we culled a bird not for parasite illness and discovered cecal worms and she took in some fecal samples to work to do some lab practice which showed light worm infestation on a couple of symptomless hens.)

Typically, it is only when there is a huge overload that you will see signs: worms in the poo, thinness, ruffled feathers, lethargy, poor egg production, diarrhea.

If you believe worms are generally present in chickens, then it becomes a matter of philosophy of when you should worm.

Some believe you should worm only after there are signs of a large infestation since generally the body's own immune system is working to keep the worm load in balance. However, the disadvantage to that method is a worm problem can then be much harder to eradicate. In response to this, some believe in worming proactively (seasonally) as a matter of course. That method can expose the birds to more products than they may need. Those who worm proactively argue that less products are used in the long run if you prevent the large infestation and the resulting worm breeding ground that prolongs the worm problem indefinitely.

Once you have decided there are worms, and you should worm, then it becomes a choice of what to use for worming.

There is the crowd that believes that man-made (manufactured) chemicals create more harm than good and thus choose "natural" methods believing the body's own immune system will fight off disease and pests, or at least keep them in balance. If signs indicate it is necessary, nature's products (herbals, DE, etc.) are believed to provide a better and more gentle answer than the harsh chemicals. Studies on the efficacy of herbals and DE is pretty sketchy, but some studies indicate pumpkin seeds, cayenne pepper, wormwood, ACV (apple cider vinegar) and garlic actually do discourage worm growth in the intestinal tract causing them to be expelled from the body. However, these herbals do not kill the worms, so they are free to be re-ingested. Litter control and field management are essential with herbals.

Then there is the crowd that believes nature can use a helping hand, and that not all of us have unlimited space (especially the large commercial farmers with lots of chickens in small quarters that they are targeting), so modern science has studied and created chemicals to do the job (all the -zoles, -mectins, -mycins, etc.)

It can be hard to wade through all the opinions, so you just have to come to a point that you simply do what you feel is best and change only if you see a need.

Lady of McCamley

 

[gootziecat]

Thank you, LoMcC. Lots of great information here. Still wading.....

 

[Chickens R Us]

Does it hurt to deworm if you see no evidence of worms?