Would anyone care to guess genetics with me on my backyard flock?

[NatJ]

Thank you so much for the kind words and the genetic information as well. I do always love to learn about feathers color genetics. I’ve played with Chicken Calculator a lot as well. I find myself looking at “no image available” constantly when trying to recreate my flock lol.

Definitely frustrating to run into "no image" on the calculator! I've found it helpful when I'm trying to understand some things, but it definitely has its limits.

I also have my suspicions about the pattern gene just going off the second roo out of the first clutch. When I look at his saddle feathers they don’t have the straight across barring. Instead it looks like messy penciling.

For that particular cockerel, I think it's just barring, not pattern gene. The barring gene does not always make lines straight across. Sometimes they are little v-shapes, sometimes they are just kind of messy. "Cuckoo" varieties of chicken also have the barring gene, but it doesn't make really nice lines (hatchery-quality "barred" birds can have that too.) The really straight horizontal barring seems to be something that requires other genes and careful selection to get right (example, show-quality Barred Rocks).

And also the only roo in the second clutch looks so much like Mille fluer… that’s why I have my suspicions.

Mille Fleur is typically a Gold Columbian coloring, plus mottling, but no pattern gene. I agree that male does look rather like Mille Fleur coloring. I'm not sure if he actually has the Columbian gene or not, but he definitely has areas of gold and some black plus the mottling.

Whatever is going on with him, I think at least one of the pullets in the second clutch has the same thing but with silver. (#4 of the 6 photos from the second clutch.)

The E locus is just a master class in confusing me when it comes to judging just by looking. I feel like I have a better understanding than before tho after reading your comment.

Yes, the E locus trips me up too!

I think that whatever E locus gene or pair is being expressed in Bacon, is likely also similar or the same as the ones in Sweet Pea and Ranch, and the same is seen in:
first clutch, fourth picture (silver pullet)
second clutch, third picture (silver pullet)

and maybe in these ones (harder to tell because of barring and/or mottling):
second clutch, pictures 4/5/6 (silver pullets and gold cockerel)
third clutch, second picture (gold pullet)

As I look again at the roosters and the chicks, I wonder if Mayo is Extended Black, with other genes restricting how much black can show. When people cross Buff Orpingtons with Barred Rocks, they get chicks that have one Extended Black gene but show lots of gold or silver in addition, because the Buff Orpingtons are contributing lots of genes that restrict black. Example: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...que-cross-new-pics.292694/page-2#post-5335507
In that post, see how much gold those chickens have? Yet they must have one Extended Black gene, since it says they have a Barred Rock parent. I suspect Mayo has something similar going on genetically.

Or I also wondered if Serama Rooster 1 might be Birchen, which can produce actual black chickens when it has the right modifiers (increase the amount of black).

I am not very good at sorting out e-locus puzzles. It definitely has a big effect on the appearance of the chickens, but can be affected by some many other things that I have trouble trying to figure it out.

 

[YukitaCynder]

That’s wild! It makes sense too why so many chickens look different. I wondered about Columbia gene too. I’m familiar with it from when I bred sebrights but I haven’t had any of those for years. I also have pictures of Bacon and Ranch’s full Brothers

I wish I had any info on Sweet Peas lineage but I got her from a friend of a friend from his free range flock. She was the smallest thing I had ever seen. I can only guess she’s spangled OEGB she seems to look almost as good as the show birds on google so that’s my best guess. I could potentially ask Mayo’s breeder about his parentage.

Thank you about the info on barring vs pattern gene. It’s nice to come back out of that rabbit hole and breath a little lol.

Just for extra contest too Sweet Pea and this rooster

Produced my favorite rooster of all time who died in the line of service: protecting his hens from night time predators. Every one of his hens serviced unscathed.

I called him Budy.

 

[NatJ]

That’s wild! It makes sense too why so many chickens look different. I wondered about Columbia gene too. I’m familiar with it from when I bred sebrights but I haven’t had any of those for years.

All sorts of confusing possibilities!
In case I forgot to say it, even if Mayo has one Extended Black gene, he must also have one other gene that is not Extended Black. That is how he can sire so many chicks that are not black, or black with white barring, or black with white mottling.

I also have pictures of Bacon and Ranch’s full Brothers

I'm thinking they look Black Breasted Red, without or with mottling. But there are several e-locus genes that can actually cause that pattern in males.

I wish I had any info on Sweet Peas lineage but I got her from a friend of a friend from his free range flock. She was the smallest thing I had ever seen. I can only guess she’s spangled OEGB she seems to look almost as good as the show birds on google so that’s my best guess.

I was also wondering about Spangled OEGB. If she is, then she should have e+/e+ and mo/mo (that is wild-type at the e-locus and two mottling genes), along with gold and no barring, and pretty much all the other default genes in the chicken calculator.

I could potentially ask Mayo’s breeder about his parentage.

If you are really curious, you certainly could do that. It might help clear things up, or it might not actually help much.

Thank you about the info on barring vs pattern gene. It’s nice to come back out of that rabbit hole and breath a little lol.

Just for extra contest too Sweet Pea and this roosterView attachment 4229165
Produced my favorite rooster of all time who died in the line of service: protecting his hens from night time predators. Every one of his hens serviced unscathed.View attachment 4229177
I called him Budy.

Pretty roosters!
I see one has Dominant White turning all his black areas to white. He only has one Dominant White gene, because his son Budy did not inherit it.

 

[YukitaCynder]

Would you call budy Mahogany by any chance? He was super dark red.

 

[YukitaCynder]

Also Also, I’m planning on keeping this girl

And breeding her back to Mayo to see if this can eventually breed true because it reminds me of Sussex but nothing else looks even close from what I could find. The pure white breast is what throws me. One of the hens from the second clutch looks just like her too so I know I can at least get them from my current quartet.

 

[NatJ]

Would you call budy Mahogany by any chance? He was super dark red.

Yes, it is quite likely that he has the Mahogany gene. I do not know how dark "gold" can be without that gene, and how dark with it. So for example I'm not sure whether Ranch & Bacon's brothers also have the Mahogany gene (maybe?), or the father of Budy (another maybe?)

 

[NatJ]

Also Also, I’m planning on keeping this girlView attachment 4229179
And breeding her back to Mayo to see if this can eventually breed true because it reminds me of Sussex but nothing else looks even close from what I could find. The pure white breast is what throws me. One of the hens from the second clutch looks just like her too so I know I can at least get them from my current quartet.

I'm not entirely sure what to call it either.

She's obviously got the silver gene, and she does not have the "salmon" color we usually see in the breast of wild-type hens (even the silver ones: look at pictures of Silver Duckwing hens if you want examples.) I don't know what e-locus gene she has (e+/e+ or e+ with something else, or two of something else).

If any of your birds have the pattern gene, she would be one of the most likely. I'm not sure if that level of "pattern" in the feathers can happen without the pattern gene or not.

She is definitely pretty!

 

[YukitaCynder]

Oh now that I’ve done more educated research, Budy’s dad looks like a Dutch bantam. He even showed tiny fuzzy feathers on his legs. I think it would be hard to tell if he carried mahogany. I’ll have to look at more of Sweet Peas baby’s to see if it could have come from her. She’s had more chicks than I can count lol.

As for the odd looking girl (I’ve named her Blue Cheese), if I had the opportunity I’d love to call her look “Seedsnipe” after the feathers pattern of the Least Seedsnipe.

Photo taken by Daniel Pettersson.

 

[NatJ]

Oh now that I’ve done more educated research, Budy’s dad looks like a Dutch bantam. He even showed tiny fuzzy feathers on his legs. I think it would be hard to tell if he carried mahogany. I’ll have to look at more of Sweet Peas baby’s to see if it could have come from her. She’s had more chicks than I can count lol.

I know that some genes make gold/red colors darker (Mahogany) and that some make gold/red colors lighter (Cream), but I'm pretty sure there are some other genes that affect the exact shade of color without having a big enough effect to get individually studied and named. And just for good measure, it's pretty common for males to get extra dark/red shades in their shoulders even when they do not seem to have Mahogany. I've also read that the color Buff (as in Buff Orpingtons) may involved both Mahogany and Cream, or some such combination, but that it hasn't actually be studied enough to be sure.

I'm pretty confident that Mahogany is found in Rhode Island Reds, and in at least some Black Breasted Red chickens (roosters and hens both), but beyond that I really don't know. Rhode Island Reds can have a range of "red" shades, including some that are quite red and some that are so dark they are nearly black, so there's more evidence that other genes must affect the shade of color too.

As for the odd looking girl (I’ve named her Blue Cheese), if I had the opportunity I’d love to call her look “Seedsnipe” after the feathers pattern of the Least Seedsnipe.
View attachment 4229272
Photo taken by Daniel Pettersson.

That is a pretty feather pattern, and I see definitely see some similarities between that bird and the feather patterns on your chicken! Double laced or multi-laced chickens come closes to matching the black lines on the feathers of that bird, but chickens don't seem to get the combination of three colors on each feather like that (white edge, then gold between the black lines).

Oh, a detail about the mottling gene: apparently what it does is make a white tip on each feather, then a bit of black, then the rest of the feather is colored according to whatever other color genes the chicken has. On a black chicken, that comes out looking like like a white tip on a black feather. On Mille Fleur you see all three colors. Golden Neck is like Mille Fleur but with a gene that turns black to white, so you just see gold and lots of white. Silver Mille Fleur looks like a white chicken with little bits of black (often v-shaped) between the white feather tip and the white remainder of the feather. Speckled Sussex and Spangled Old English Game are similar to Mille Fleur but with darker red (the Mahogany gene is involved there.)

When someone finally sorted out most of that about the mottling gene, they published a paper in 1980 called "The Mottling Gene, the Basis of Six Plumage Color Patterns in the Domestic Fowl" (author Ralph G. Somes, jr.)
Hopefully this link will work:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119355154
Before that, various things had been studied, and several "different" genes were named, that turned out to be the mottling gene in different situations.

This page has lots of pictures of d'Uccle bantams, which includes many with the mottling gene:
https://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Millies/BRKMilleFleur.html
And they are labeled, which really helps!
There are lots of Mille Fleur, some Golden Neck, a Silver Mille Fleur, and quite a few others.
There is also at least one Cuckoo, which is black with the barring gene and no mottling gene-- it's a pretty good example of how "barring" can sometimes look rather spotted or dotty in some birds.