Would you keep this rooster?

[Michael Apple]

I'd keep the rooster and increase the number of hens of the same breed. I'd keep him because I am the one with more brain capacity to solve problems. This thread may be helpful to you: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...succeeded-in-retraining-an-aggressive-rooster

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: This is to be expected in a bad rooster and any offspring he might have.

It's not to be expected in a good rooster or any offspring he might have.

I think it would be a disservice to the breed to utilize a vicious male. He is both human aggressive and hen aggressive, a loss in two ways there, and also averse to coming back to the coop to roost, so he's a very likely one to breed antisocial offspring on top of their likely inherited viciousness. Never worth it in my opinion.

I have tried retraining and breeding out bad traits and it's never once been worth the bother. If he does gain a fear of you and stop attacking, which is rare but not unheard of, there is still a better chance than not that he'll have vicious offspring nonetheless. His behavior is symptomatic of a deeper problem, an incorrect mindset, or warped instincts and perceptions. The surface symptoms you have a slight chance of altering but the underlying issue remains and breeds true far more often than not.
Quote: It's almost entirely breeding, not training. About 99% breeding, or even higher, in my experience, since I've never seen another aggressive rooster emerge in all the generations I've bred since culling for human-, hen-, chick- and excess male-to-male- aggressions.

In my experience there are some chooks who can go several ways (friendly or unfriendly, or the middle ground, which is aloof) depending on their life experiences, but the majority have either a bent towards being peaceful or violent. A violent bird needs no excuse to attack. In future, with a bit of experience, you can spot nasty birds as chicks. I bet you he would have given some subtle signs which with more experience you would have noted.
Quote: The ratio of hens is not what makes him either pacifist or violent. It's a deeper inherited behavioral pattern. His father was most likely just the same. It's utterly unnatural for a rooster to abuse a hen but due to humans keeping roosters that do, it's normal. Giving him more hens won't guarantee he'll treat them well at all, and it certainly won't fix his human aggression issues.
Quote: I disagree about that. I've handled all my males, without exception, and only one has ever attacked me; this male was not of my breeding, and I didn't let him pass on his genes, which solved that problem. I've handled hundreds and hundreds of roosters from all sorts of genetics. Most I raised, but some I bought in as adults. None attacked any human. Not breeding violent males is key.

I would never, ever buy from someone who keeps males who have attacked a human. Likewise, I'd never buy from someone who thinks all males are just inherently violent.

I think most of the posts you've read on violent roosters were written by newer poultry keepers, since most people with years of experience no longer have such issues, whether they've followed my chosen method of culling it out or have caged their aggressive males or have followed your methods and found they work for them, or whatever their methods were.

I don't believe handling makes them view you as subordinate or equal. Trust and friendliness are far safer traits to rely on than fear and mistrust. If the bird perceives that you and itself are in the same social order, then it is always in the back of its mind watching for an opportunity to move up the hierarchy. I won't tolerate a rooster who might one day feel brave enough to attack me or a child.

I think if they view you as the 'top rooster' then that's a fault in itself; I'm not a rooster, and neither is any human. The majority of chickens understand we are not chickens, just like they understand a dog is not a chicken, neither is a cat, or a hawk, and so forth. Some don't perceive the difference and these I cull. These ones tend to be dangerously aberrant. My roosters' respect for humans is not based on every human's ability to physically dominate them. If my ability to back up my alpha rooster status is what keeps him respectful, then where is the rooster's respect for children who can't reinforce their alpha male status if challenged? Too risky. Roosters can do terrible and even fatal damage. There's so many great males out there, why breed the worst ones?

This is a controversial issue which basically divides poultry keepers according to their breeding philosophies. According to people's beliefs, their strains of breeds are shaped, and you can expect these beliefs to be reflected in the behavior of their animals. What you believe is 'normal' is what your animals will come to embody over the generations; 'normal' is whatever you believe it is. Personally, I would not give this rooster another chance because he's attacked a child as well as an adult. If it was just the hens being plucked, and he was of rare and good genetic stock, I might make an exception, but he's not, and human aggression is the absolutely last straw in my books. But whatever your choices, best wishes.

 

[QChickieMama]

This is to be expected in a bad rooster and any offspring he might have.

It's not to be expected in a good rooster or any offspring he might have.

I think it would be a disservice to the breed to utilize a vicious male. He is both human aggressive and hen aggressive, a loss in two ways there, and also averse to coming back to the coop to roost, so he's a very likely one to breed antisocial offspring on top of their likely inherited viciousness. Never worth it in my opinion.

I have tried retraining and breeding out bad traits and it's never once been worth the bother. If he does gain a fear of you and stop attacking, which is rare but not unheard of, there is still a better chance than not that he'll have vicious offspring nonetheless. His behavior is symptomatic of a deeper problem, an incorrect mindset, or warped instincts and perceptions. The surface symptoms you have a slight chance of altering but the underlying issue remains and breeds true far more often than not.
It's almost entirely breeding, not training. About 99% breeding, or even higher, in my experience, since I've never seen another aggressive rooster emerge in all the generations I've bred since culling for human-, hen-, chick- and excess male-to-male- aggressions.

In my experience there are some chooks who can go several ways (friendly or unfriendly, or the middle ground, which is aloof) depending on their life experiences, but the majority have either a bent towards being peaceful or violent. A violent bird needs no excuse to attack. In future, with a bit of experience, you can spot nasty birds as chicks. I bet you he would have given some subtle signs which with more experience you would have noted.
The ratio of hens is not what makes him either pacifist or violent. It's a deeper inherited behavioral pattern. His father was most likely just the same. It's utterly unnatural for a rooster to abuse a hen but due to humans keeping roosters that do, it's normal. Giving him more hens won't guarantee he'll treat them well at all, and it certainly won't fix his human aggression issues.
I disagree about that. I've handled all my males, without exception, and only one has ever attacked me; this male was not of my breeding, and I didn't let him pass on his genes, which solved that problem. I've handled hundreds and hundreds of roosters from all sorts of genetics. Most I raised, but some I bought in as adults. None attacked any human. Not breeding violent males is key.

I would never, ever buy from someone who keeps males who have attacked a human. Likewise, I'd never buy from someone who thinks all males are just inherently violent.

I think most of the posts you've read on violent roosters were written by newer poultry keepers, since most people with years of experience no longer have such issues, whether they've followed my chosen method of culling it out or have caged their aggressive males or have followed your methods and found they work for them, or whatever their methods were.

I don't believe handling makes them view you as subordinate or equal. Trust and friendliness are far safer traits to rely on than fear and mistrust. If the bird perceives that you and itself are in the same social order, then it is always in the back of its mind watching for an opportunity to move up the hierarchy. I won't tolerate a rooster who might one day feel brave enough to attack me or a child.

I think if they view you as the 'top rooster' then that's a fault in itself; I'm not a rooster, and neither is any human. The majority of chickens understand we are not chickens, just like they understand a dog is not a chicken, neither is a cat, or a hawk, and so forth. Some don't perceive the difference and these I cull. These ones tend to be dangerously aberrant. My roosters' respect for humans is not based on every human's ability to physically dominate them. If my ability to back up my alpha rooster status is what keeps him respectful, then where is the rooster's respect for children who can't reinforce their alpha male status if challenged? Too risky. Roosters can do terrible and even fatal damage. There's so many great males out there, why breed the worst ones?

This is a controversial issue which basically divides poultry keepers according to their breeding philosophies. According to people's beliefs, their strains of breeds are shaped, and you can expect these beliefs to be reflected in the behavior of their animals. What you believe is 'normal' is what your animals will come to embody over the generations; 'normal' is whatever you believe it is. Personally, I would not give this rooster another chance because he's attacked a child as well as an adult. If it was just the hens being plucked, and he was of rare and good genetic stock, I might make an exception, but he's not, and human aggression is the absolutely last straw in my books. But whatever your choices, best wishes.

Thank you for taking the time to educate me (and others) on proper rooster management! I haven't been working with birds for too long, so this is very helpful.

One question for you: When I first put this roo with 5 hens, he was younger and smaller than they were. When he would approach them, they'd run after him and peck him. This only happened once or twice before I realized and let him grow up more. Could this experience have added to his aggressive nature?

 

[donrae]

Do not EVER keep an animal that attacks you. Ever.

Get rid of the rooster and allow your little girl to enjoy your hens. That is a great gift to give her. No child should have to fear animals on their property. Respect, absolutely. Fear, no.

 

[QChickieMama]

Do not EVER keep an animal that attacks you. Ever.

Get rid of the rooster and allow your little girl to enjoy your hens. That is a great gift to give her. No child should have to fear animals on their property. Respect, absolutely. Fear, no.

We have plans for butchering. I appreciate all the comments I've received here!

I remember my brother's dog seriously bit my other brother (who unknowingly and stupidly provoked it), and I was shocked that they kept the dog. Just never put my crazy roo and brother's biting dog in the same category.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: You're welcome. Ultimately it comes down to what proves to be true for you, and these have been my experiences, but I'm sure many others have gone through similar or identical ones yet had totally different outcomes. What we believe is normal/natural, good/bad, etc shapes our flocks.
Quote: It doesn't adversely affect my cockerels if they approach a hen and she pecks them for trying it on, but it's impossible to say for sure it didn't affect yours; but I certainly don't think it would have been a deciding factor, especially since he also shows other unrelated negative traits. It sounds like a very mild experience overall. But being raised away from hens greatly increases the chances a cockerel will be violent to them.

It's normal for a young cockerel to be rejected by hens, and to get disciplined if he begins to try to mate before they view him as an adult; from their point of view they've just been assaulted by a subordinate. If they were bullying him, or chasing to harass the animal which is already showing submission by fleeing, that's not a positive behavior and one I don't allow, but it is normal for a lot of artificially reared birds who are unused to family groups.

Any lower social status/juvenile bird that forgets its place, whether male or female, will be told off by a hen if it moves into her personal space in an inappropriate way, but after puberty the roosters discipline the cockerels and the hens discipline the pullets. At least that's how it goes in my flock. There's no bullying nor damage but the pecking order is reinforced.

I believe in raising them all together in family groups, which helps them learn tolerant social coping mechanisms. Males and females who were kept apart from one another, or raised artificially without a hen, are far more likely to be violent to one another when they do meet up.

Many such chickens lack a complete comprehension of the other gender's role, and tend to view them as a variation on their own gender; hence you get roosters who fight hens and hens who fight roosters, whereas more naturally raised birds don't have conflicts outside of their own gender after puberty hits. Males compete with males and females with females, and it's only when we rear them artificially for many generations that they start to lose the instinctive behaviors toward one another and develop negative ones.

If they weren't damaging him I would have left him in with them. He would have learnt not to approach them directly, which is seen as a challenge, and pretty soon (depending on how old he was) he would have been trying to woo them with tidbits of food. My cockerels have always found willing mates by luring the females to come to them, not trying to jump on any hen they can, which often leads to the hen punishing the cockerel, or even a rooster coming to sort him out if he's getting into his 'later teens' in developmental terms.

For the safety of your child I would get rid of him. Even a 6 year old is no match for a rooster, and even removing his spurs won't guarantee he can't do permanent or even fatal damage. If you do manage to train him out of it, his offspring will most likely have at least a few that are just like him. I have tried breeding out negative behavioral traits and it is far more reliable to simply cull the animal. He's a shame to his breed and gender. There are many truly great roosters out here who will never threaten you or your child, nor harm the hens, nor any chicks that you get from them or any other rooster for that matter.

Best wishes.